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Roger Sanders appears on "Three Sad Bastards" podcast

Sir Sanders Zingmore

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#1
There's a podcast from "down under" that is gaining a bit of a loyal following. Entitled "Three Sad Bastards", it usually consists of three long-term friends bickering about their love of hifi. Entertaining, as long as you don't take them too seriously.

But the latest episode actually has something substantive to say. It is an interview with Roger Sanders

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/s02e7-for-the-love-of-sanders/id1507530486?i=1000496053475

Have a listen

*Disclaimer: I am one of the podcasters (Officially, "sad bastard three" :) )
 

BDWoody

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#2
Interesting.

So, minimum of 500wpc?

I'm a big believer in plenty of power, and I'd say that would certainly go a long way to prevent clipping, but...500 as the entry point?


What do you think of that?
 

pozz

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I'm a big believer in plenty of power, and I'd say that would certainly go a long way to prevent clipping, but...500 as the entry point?
It's not at all unreasonable when you do raw power calculations for bass.

Sanders' comments about Class D amp FR being reliant on load apply to ICEpower amps, for example. I think Hypex/Purifi modules don't show load dependency.

The last two minutes of the interview is really good. Sanders' view on how to be a successful manufacturer is the same as ASR's—people are hugely appreciative if underlying issues and requirements of audio are clearly explained, and if you are consistent and honest that in itself becomes a great marketing tool.

Edit: @Sir Sanders Zingmore I added it here, by the way: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/interview-library.9603/
 

pjug

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#4
Interesting.

So, minimum of 500wpc?

I'm a big believer in plenty of power, and I'd say that would certainly go a long way to prevent clipping, but...500 as the entry point?


What do you think of that?
He says put an oscilloscope on the speakers and see, which is a good idea I think. 500W seems as arbitrary as any other number. Funny how these kind of rule of thumb numbers tend to align with the manufacturer's products.
 

pozz

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pjug

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Also, he makes it sound like traditional unregulated linear power supplies always give terrible distortion. What is Amir doing wrong with testing of power amps with linear supplies that this awful distortion isn't showing up?
 

pozz

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Also, he makes it sound like traditional unregulated linear power supplies always give terrible distortion. What is Amir doing wrong with testing of power amps with linear supplies that this awful distortion isn't showing up?
Sanders' perspective involves large power requirements and causes of clipping in amplifiers.

Look up "voltage sag" and "linear power supply" online for an explanation.

Amir's testing shows you the amp's continuous and momentary (peak) capabilities. If your use case asks for more you will clip the signal and introduce nonlinearities. That's about it.
 

pjug

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Sanders' perspective involves large power requirements and causes of clipping in amplifiers.

Look up "voltage sag" and "linear power supply" online for an explanation.

Amir's testing shows you the amp's continuous and momentary (peak) capabilities. If your use case asks for more you will clip the signal and introduce nonlinearities. That's about it.
I understand what he's saying about the sag with unregulated supplies, I just don't see the distortion he's talking about. Show me how his magtech has lower distortion than the Outlaw M2200 for example.
 

pozz

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I understand what he's saying about the sag with unregulated supplies, I just don't see the distortion he's talking about. Show me how his magtech has lower distortion than the Outlaw M2200 for example.
He is not claiming that his amps have lower distortion, only that they eliminate more sources of potential clipping. The Outlaw amp will not be able to handle a 0.3 ohm load, for example.

It will be interesting to have a Magtech amp measured. @Sir Sanders Zingmore perhaps you could ask him about sending one to ASR?
 

pjug

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He also talks about biasing problems, makes it sound like unregulated linear supplies are hopeless. I'm guessing his amp is good, but I'm bothered by his implying that these magtech features (500W, regulated supply) are essential for good sound.
 

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He is not claiming that his amps have lower distortion, only that they eliminate more sources of potential clipping. The Outlaw amp will not be able to handle a 0.3 ohm load, for example.
?
He wasn't talking about clipping on that point. He said the voltage sag modulates the distortion, "wrecking the performance" when using unregulated supplies.
 

pozz

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He also talks about biasing problems, makes it sound like unregulated linear supplies are hopeless. I'm guessing his amp is good, but I'm bothered by his implying that these magtech features (500W, regulated supply) are essential for good sound.
Look, the guy is semi-retired. It's possible that his market/gear knowledge is dated, or that he considers Hypex/Purifi stuff to be so far outside of the norm as far as chip amps and Class D modules go that he would rather make a simpler point than throw a bunch of caveats around. He wasn't speaking to a technical audience. He has also written about the reasons for his opinions in articles on his website: http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/161-the-magtech-regulated-power-supply-wp His opinions and papers are not what we've grown to expect with Amir's practical demonstrations and measurements-first approach, but are entirely reasonable when you take his goals into account.
 

pjug

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Look, the guy is semi-retired. It's possible that his market/gear knowledge is dated, or that he considers Hypex/Purifi stuff to be so far outside of the norm as far as chip amps and Class D modules go that he would rather make a simpler point than throw a bunch of caveats around. He wasn't speaking to a technical audience. He has also written about the reasons for his opinions in articles on his website: http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/161-the-magtech-regulated-power-supply-wp His opinions and papers are not what we've grown to expect with Amir's practical demonstrations and measurements-first approach, but are entirely reasonable when you take his goals into account.
Sure. He seems like a nice enough guy, and I have no reason to believe his amps are not solid. Also, stories of his support of his products are admirable.

On the 500W point, I could't agree more with his suggestion to put a scope on speakers to see about clipping. I've done this myself and I have to play much louder than I'd ever want to get peaks of hundreds of watts (this with dynamic music, crest factor >20dB, 87dB 8-ohm speakers.
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

Sir Sanders Zingmore

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Thread Starter #15
It will be interesting to have a Magtech amp measured. @Sir Sanders Zingmore perhaps you could ask him about sending one to ASR?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that @amirm's dummy load is limited in the power it can handle. The Magtechs claim 900w into 4 ohms. There's no point asking him to send one in if it can't be measured to its claimed output
 
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Sir Sanders Zingmore

Sir Sanders Zingmore

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Sure. He seems like a nice enough guy, and I have no reason to believe his amps are not solid. Also, stories of his support of his products are admirable.

On the 500W point, I could't agree more with his suggestion to put a scope on speakers to see about clipping. I've done this myself and I have to play much louder than I'd ever want to get peaks of hundreds of watts (this with dynamic music, crest factor >20dB, 87dB 8-ohm speakers.
I've done this too (I think I've mentioned it in other thread - apologies for the repetition).
My 50w amp was clearly clipping into my ~95dB speakers at a volume that was only a little louder than my 'loud' listening level. It was very surprising and changed my opinion about how much headroom you really need.
 

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