RME ADI2 Pro, Neumann KH 120II & non-Neumann Subwoofer

[shurioto]

Dear all,

my current setup consists of a RME ADI2 Pro FS R BE and a pair of Neumann KH 120 II. I use the Neumann MA1 for room correction.

The prices of Neumann Subwoofers are getting higher and higher and the only suitable sub for my desktop-use, a KH750, is too expensive for my needs (~1600€, a year ago <1400€, two years ago below 1300€). It brings an own DSP-engine which is nice for using older, analogue Neumann Monitors (KH120, KH310, KH 420), but the DSP enginge is already included in the KH120IIs. It feels like paying twice for the same functionality.

I'm not sure, if I will expand the current setup in future (maybe if all stuff moves into the living room) but my question is the following:

Can I use the current equipment to add one or two non-Neumann subs without creating new problems?

The RME can work as a frequency splitter - but does it makes sense to "mix" systems with the MA1 setup?

I was not able to find an answer for this specific question and hope this subforum is the right one.

 

[Redacted]

AFAICT, no. It's a "closed garden" proprietary system. You sound as if you are doing studio recordings and playback, so you may need to buy Neumann subs that integrate into the system for checking your recordings properly.

But if not, you can use any powered sub (or subs) that has manual volume and XO controls to work well enough I would think.

Run the setup without subs to adjust filters in the speakers. The speakers claim -3dB is at 44Hz, and I guess the DSP setup will force them to go as low as possible, so then set new subs to XO at that point, play some stepped test files, adjust the volume of subs. If you get booms or suckouts around 44Hz, then change sub XO point until it sounds right. You won't get the fine control over filtering room resonances like you would with subs that are integrated with the Neumann system, but a bit of careful positioning can mitigate this.

You could also look into REW (etc etc) and other DSP units.

 

[somebodyelse]

From seeing discussions of the RME's filtering capabilities elsewhere, its filters apparently aren't really suitable for a sub crossover. You'd be better off using the KH120's filters to control the high pass part of the crossover, and the sub's low pass and phase controls. As I understand it MA1 doesn't give you direct control over the filters though, so you'd probably have to set it up with something like khtool. You'll probably want a sub with its own DSP to fine tune the match with the KH120s and do the room correction, along with REW for the measurements. Part of what you're paying for with the KH750 is all this being quick and easy with MA1, not a manual process requiring some skills.

 

[waofner]

if you are in near field ik-multimedia sub will do the trick.

 

[shurioto]

AFAICT, no. It's a "closed garden" proprietary system. You sound as if you are doing studio recordings and playback, so you may need to buy Neumann subs that integrate into the system for checking your recordings properly.

But if not, you can use any powered sub (or subs) that has manual volume and XO controls to work well enough I would think.

Run the setup without subs to adjust filters in the speakers. The speakers claim -3dB is at 44Hz, and I guess the DSP setup will force them to go as low as possible, so then set new subs to XO at that point, play some stepped test files, adjust the volume of subs. If you get booms or suckouts around 44Hz, then change sub XO point until it sounds right. You won't get the fine control over filtering room resonances like you would with subs that are integrated with the Neumann system, but a bit of careful positioning can mitigate this.

You could also look into REW (etc etc) and other DSP units.

Thank you - Neumann itself is using a higher crossover frequency to avoid distortions in the 6,5" speakers as far as I remember. I"m getting quite low without a sub in near-field on my desk, around 35Hz (see graph). Need to test it in the living room for a useful comparison before getting deeper into different options.

I've no idea, if using different DSP engines is a good idea or not

From seeing discussions of the RME's filtering capabilities elsewhere, its filters apparently aren't really suitable for a sub crossover. You'd be better off using the KH120's filters to control the high pass part of the crossover, and the sub's low pass and phase controls. As I understand it MA1 doesn't give you direct control over the filters though, so you'd probably have to set it up with something like khtool. You'll probably want a sub with its own DSP to fine tune the match with the KH120s and do the room correction, along with REW for the measurements. Part of what you're paying for with the KH750 is all this being quick and easy with MA1, not a manual process requiring some skills.

Thank you! Maybe it"s better to spend the extra money and have some confidence about the result.
Perhaps using the old KH120 and a KH750 DSP Sub is more cost effective way.

if you are in near field ik-multimedia sub will do the trick.

thank you for the tip! Seems to be interesting!


↦ I will measure the speakers in the living room and see, if a sub is really needed. If so (and if they will be placed over there) I have to think about the different options. A desk without speakers is not very useful as well

Thanks for all the input!

 

[Curvature]

You can trick the system by routing the speakers through the sub. Results won't be as good since essentially it will look like the mains have widely extended bass.

 

[Flaesh]

MA1

I don’t know exactly how the MA1 is designed and what it is capable of. Does it feature a controllable high-pass filter? Theoretically, a single DSP is sufficient for a system to implement all the necessary crossovers, equalizers, and delays (speaker delay is desirable in most cases). I prefer external amplification and processing, whether the latter is a hardware box or software on a computer.

will measure the speakers in the living room and see

Yeah. This can differ significantly from a desktop system.