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RME ADI-2 FS Version 2 DAC and Headphone Amp Review

can someone please confirm whether the ADI-2 dac is capable of driving the modhouse tungsten?
Modhouse specify the Tungsten as 84.7dB/V 135Ω (single-sided) or 86.1dB/V 155Ω (double-sided).

With either version of the Tungsten, the ADI-2 DAC will max out at 9.75V.

That means that, according to Modhouse's sensitivity specs, the RME can drive them to Peak levels of 104.5dB SPL (single) or 105.9dB SPL (double).

Whether that's enough for you, I cannot say. It would certainly be loud enough for me.
 
thanks for the replies and that sounds like good news to me.
ie no need for the more expensive "pro" version, or another separate amp.
cheers guys
 
thanks for the replies and that sounds like good news to me.
ie no need for the more expensive "pro" version, or another separate amp.
cheers guys
The only advantage of the Pro here would be the ability to run the headphone in balanced mode (if that headphone allows that). That mode gives full 6 dB higher voltage here and thus 6 dB more max volume. In an extreme case as with this low volume headphone balanced might be a nice feature. But it depends how you listen to music, if you need that higher volume or not.
 
The only advantage of the Pro here would be the ability to run the headphone in balanced mode (if that headphone allows that). That mode gives full 6 dB higher voltage here and thus 6 dB more max volume. In an extreme case as with this low volume headphone balanced might be a nice feature. But it depends how you listen to music, if you need that higher volume or not.
I can share my experience with the Dan Clark Audio Stealth (a planar magnetic headphone): using the balanced output on my Pro SE provided enough power and headroom to handle music with wide dynamic swings, such as classical pieces. This ensured I could reach adequate volume levels and maintain consistent performance. If you own planars that are power-hungry, the balanced output might be worth exploring.
 
The only advantage of the Pro here would be the ability to run the headphone in balanced mode (if that headphone allows that). That mode gives full 6 dB higher voltage here and thus 6 dB more max volume. In an extreme case as with this low volume headphone balanced might be a nice feature. But it depends how you listen to music, if you need that higher volume or not.
Is this at 155 Ohm? The manual (ADI-2 Pro FS R v3.8, DAC v3.3) says voltage at 155/2 = 77.5 Ohm - so log2(77.5/64) = 0.2761 or about a quarter of the way between 64 and 128 Ohm - is 8.8 V RMS. Balanced voltage is thus 2*8.8 V RMS = 17.6 V RMS which gives 1998.5 mW RMS. This is consistent with the power-impedance figure where 155 Ohm is about a quarter of the way between 128 and 256 Ohm. For single ended, voltage is 9.6 V RMS and the maximum level difference is thus 20*log(17.6/9.6) = 5.26 dB.

Curiously, the current seems at odds with the voltage in parts of the voltage-current-impedance figure. At 32 Ohm, voltage is 6.8 V RMS and current is 210 mA. Since 32*.210 = 6.74, this seems consistent. However, at 128 Ohm, voltage is just below 9.6 V RMS but current is 100 mA. Since 128*.100 = 12.8 V RMS, at least one has to be incorrect. Further, at 256 Ohm, voltage is around 9.8 V RMS but current is 65 mA and at 512 Ohm voltage is the same but current is 40 mA. This is also the case for low-power as is evident in the voltage being constant but current not halving with a doubling of impedance. At 16 Ohm, it is 110 mA but at 256 Ohm it is slightly above 10 mA instead of 110/16 = 6.875 mA. For the 2/4, this seems to not be the case (ADI-2/4 Pro SE manual v1.3).

The 2/4 can produce just about the same voltage of 9.2 V RMS into 77.5 Ohm and 155 Ohm. Thus, balanced, its maximum output is 20*log10(2*9.2/9.6) = 5.65 dB above that of the DAC.
 
I can share my experience with the Dan Clark Audio Stealth (a planar magnetic headphone): using the balanced output on my Pro SE provided enough power and headroom to handle music with wide dynamic swings, such as classical pieces. This ensured I could reach adequate volume levels and maintain consistent performance. If you own planars that are power-hungry, the balanced output might be worth exploring.
Did you try the single ended output and lacked volume? Based on the manual, at 23 Ohm, I can only see a level difference on the 2/4 of around 20*log10(2*4.1/6.9) = 1.5 dB. Compared to the Pro FS and the DAC in single ended, the difference is around 20*log10(2*4.1/5.6) = 3.31 dB and around 20*log10(2*4.1/(2*3.2)) = 2.15 dB compared to the Pro FS balanced.
 
Curiously, the current seems at odds with the voltage in parts of the voltage-current-impedance figure. At 32 Ohm, voltage is 6.8 V RMS and current is 210 mA. Since 32*.210 = 6.74, this seems consistent. However, at 128 Ohm, voltage is just below 9.6 V RMS but current is 100 mA. Since 128*.100 = 12.8 V RMS, at least one has to be incorrect. Further, at 256 Ohm, voltage is around 9.8 V RMS but current is 65 mA and at 512 Ohm voltage is the same but current is 40 mA. This is also the case for low-power as is evident in the voltage being constant but current not halving with a doubling of impedance. At 16 Ohm, it is 110 mA but at 256 Ohm it is slightly above 10 mA instead of 110/16 = 6.875 mA. For the 2/4, this seems to not be the case (ADI-2/4 Pro SE manual v1.3).
I have to check if something is wrong in the Pro's Excel based table/diagram with current.
 
Sherlock is back - I found out what went wrong. The Excel table includes several rows of data points, and the two current (I) graphs from the pic in the manual refer to a row of 8, 16, 32 (match) and then 42, 80, 150, 250, 600 Ohm values. That of course does not match to the X axis used here.

The pic is from 2016 and had been fixed in 2017, but for whatever reason never made it into the manuals of Pro (all versions) and DAC (same pic, because same Extreme Power output stage). Most probably it got overlooked because they are nearly identical - only @JIW is able to see the issue ;)

None of the official tech specs etc are affected by this, they are still all valid as documented. Here is the fixed pic.

Extreme Power U_I vs Ohm korrigiert.png
 
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Ohms x milliwatts I think would be more understandable for the general audience.
 
Sherlock is back - I found out what went wrong. The Excel table includes several rows of data points, and the two current (I) graphs from the pic in the manual refer to a row of 8, 16, 32 (match) and then 42, 80, 150, 250, 600 Ohm values. That of course does not match to the X axis used here.

The pic is from 2016 and had been fixed in 2017, but for whatever reason never made it into the manuals of Pro (all versions) and DAC (same pic, because same Extreme Power output stage). Most probably it got overlooked because they are nearly identical - only @JIW is able to see the issue ;)

None of the official tech specs etc are affected by this, they are still all valid as documented. Here is the fixed pic.

View attachment 423684
This looks reasonable now. The voltage between 16 and 256 Ohm has also increased slightly by up to 0.2 V.

So about the 6 dB difference between balanced and single ended at 155 Ohm. Since voltage at 155/2 = 77.5 Ohm is now 9 V RMS and at 155 Ohm is now 9.75 V RMS, the difference between Pro balanced and single ended is 5.32 dB. The 2/4 can produce just about the same voltage of 9.2 V RMS at 77.5 Ohm and 155 Ohm. Thus, balanced, its maximum output is now 20*log10(2*9.2/9.75) = 5.52 dB above that of the DAC.
 
How does the load impedance get halved?
By using balanced connection each terminal of an individual driver is connected to identical amplifiers operating as a differential pair across the driver. Thus, each amplifier has half the load compared to being single ended where only one terminal is connected to an amplifier and the other terminal is connected to ground.

For example, the Pro in balanced mode has a maximum power of around 3 W at 64 Ohm. The current for that is around sqrt(3/64) = 0.2165 A = 216.5 mA which is the maximum current at 32 Ohm single ended. See section 34.18 of Pro manual v.3.8 and MC's corrected figure above.
Screenshot 2025-01-25 at 19.01.29.png
 
Did you try the single ended output and lacked volume? Based on the manual, at 23 Ohm, I can only see a level difference on the 2/4 of around 20*log10(2*4.1/6.9) = 1.5 dB. Compared to the Pro FS and the DAC in single ended, the difference is around 20*log10(2*4.1/5.6) = 3.31 dB and around 20*log10(2*4.1/(2*3.2)) = 2.15 dB compared to the Pro FS balanced.
Thank you for explaining all that. I got the 2/4 around the same time as the Stealth and chose a 4.4 mm balanced cable for the Pentaconn connection to get as much power as possible. I was coming from an ADI 2 DAC FS, which probably would have been fine, but the 2/4 is my end game setup for headphones, so I wanted to give it every advantage. I have not tried single ended with an adapter because I am worried about damaging the headphones, so I cannot say whether single ended volume was an issue. Reading a few comments in the review thread made me cautious, and your insights here are very helpful. Greatly appreciate you for sharing your knowledge.
 
Thank you for explaining all that. I got the 2/4 around the same time as the Stealth and chose a 4.4 mm balanced cable for the Pentaconn connection to get as much power as possible. I was coming from an ADI 2 DAC FS, which probably would have been fine, but the 2/4 is my end game setup for headphones, so I wanted to give it every advantage. I have not tried single ended with an adapter because I am worried about damaging the headphones, so I cannot say whether single ended volume was an issue. Reading a few comments in the review thread made me cautious, and your insights here are very helpful. Greatly appreciate you for sharing your knowledge.
There is no problem using a balanced cable with a single ended amp as long as the negative terminals are connected to ground in the adapter. The other way around using a symmetrical amp with a cable with combined ground for both drivers is asking for trouble as the amps for the inverted signals are directly connected through the cable.

What volume setting is loud enough for you even with the most demanding recordings?
 
There is no problem using a balanced cable with a single ended amp as long as the negative terminals are connected to ground in the adapter. The other way around using a symmetrical amp with a cable with combined ground for both drivers is asking for trouble as the amps for the inverted signals are directly connected through the cable.

What volume setting is loud enough for you even with the most demanding recordings?
I casually listen to music at -44 dB to -40 dB in high gain, mostly with music from the 60s to today, and quite a bit of techno/drum n bass. This volume level is well within the capability of just about any amp. I can push it higher with classical and 192 kHz tracks, since I usually stream Apple Music at their highest resolution. For typical 44.1 kHz rock, I rarely go beyond -18 dB for more than five to ten seconds, though I have jammed at around -24 dB in high gain with a balanced connection. I’m nearly 60, so my hearing isn’t the best.
 
I casually listen to music at -44 dB to -40 dB in high gain, mostly with music from the 60s to today, and quite a bit of techno/drum n bass. This volume level is well within the capability of just about any amp. I can push it higher with classical and 192 kHz tracks, since I usually stream Apple Music at their highest resolution. For typical 44.1 kHz rock, I rarely go beyond -18 dB for more than five to ten seconds, though I have jammed at around -24 dB in high gain with a balanced connection. I’m nearly 60, so my hearing isn’t the best.
Volume -18 dB in high gain is +7 dBu at 0 dBFS. Amir measured the DCA Stealth's sensitivity as 94 dB SPL at 0.549 V RMS which is equivalent to 94 - 20*log10(.549) + 10*log10(0.6) = 97 dB SPL at 0 dBu. At -18 dB in high gain, max peak SPL is thus 97+7+3 = 107 dB SPL. At maximum voltage for 23 Ohm, 8.2 V RMS, maximum peak SPL is 94 - 20*log10(.549) + 20*log10(8.2) + 10*log10(2) = 120.49 dB SPL.

You can use Auto Ref Level, which should put you into IEM for most of your listening.
 
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Volume -18 dB in high gain is +7 dBu at 0 dBFS. Amir measured the DCA Stealth's sensitivity as 94 dB SPL at 0.549 V RMS which is equivalent to 94 - 20*log10(.549) + 10*log10(0.6) = 97 dB SPL at 0 dBu. At -18 dB in high gain, max peak SPL is thus 97+7+3 = 107 dB SPL. At maximum voltage for 23 Ohm, 8.2 V RMS, maximum peak SPL is 94 - 20*log10(.549) + 20*log10(8.2) + 10*log10(2) = 120.49 dB SPL.

You can use Auto Ref Level, which should put you into IEM for most of your listening.
Yes! Thanks a bunch. Using Auto Ref Level now. This is what I use with my speakers.
 
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