RME ADI-2 DAC vs. D90+A90 vs. Burson Conductor 3

[EchoChamber]

I've been lurking here for awhile. This forum is actually why I purchased the A90. I've had my A90 for about a week. I'm using the adi-2 as my dac using Hifiman Arya cans. I just wanted to toss my 2 cents in and ask if anyone else had a similar experience. The A90 undoubtably reaches a higher SPL, but in terms of sound and normal listening volumes, I defiantly can't tell the two amps apart. I'm trying to justify keeping the A90, but I'm really struggling to find a reason to. Sound signature, soundstage, etc. It all sounds very similar to my admittedly untrained ears. I've got a balanced cable coming for the Arya to see if that makes a difference (I've read multiple threads suggesting it does) but I'm inclined to return the unit. I'm not sure if this is a testament to the RME or knock against the A90. Like I said, there's noticeably more headroom in the A90, but unless I'm trying to make my ears bleed, I'd never notice or benefit from it in this setup. I've also got some HD6XX's in route. Maybe they'll benefit more from the A90.

I really would like to keep both. Could someone suggest a song or passage that would really articulate the superiority of the A90?

FWIW, my subjective experience with the A90 was that it “softened” the sound a bit. I felt it had less “byte” than the Schiit Magnius I bought out of curiosity and ended up keeping instead. Also a better match visually for my stack with the Modius. And much cheaper too... I noticed that (subtle) sonic character powering both my HM Sundara and BD 177X.

 

[LTig]

I've been lurking here for awhile. This forum is actually why I purchased the A90. I've had my A90 for about a week. I'm using the adi-2 as my dac using Hifiman Arya cans. I just wanted to toss my 2 cents in and ask if anyone else had a similar experience. The A90 undoubtably reaches a higher SPL, but in terms of sound and normal listening volumes, I defiantly can't tell the two amps apart. I'm trying to justify keeping the A90, but I'm really struggling to find a reason to. Sound signature, soundstage, etc. It all sounds very similar to my admittedly untrained ears. I've got a balanced cable coming for the Arya to see if that makes a difference (I've read multiple threads suggesting it does) but I'm inclined to return the unit. I'm not sure if this is a testament to the RME or knock against the A90. Like I said, there's noticeably more headroom in the A90, but unless I'm trying to make my ears bleed, I'd never notice or benefit from it in this setup. I've also got some HD6XX's in route. Maybe they'll benefit more from the A90.

I really would like to keep both. Could someone suggest a song or passage that would really articulate the superiority of the A90?

There's no good reason to keep the A90. Both have SOTA performance and keeping the A90 just to be able to ruin your ears makes no sense.

 

[Jimbob54]

I've been lurking here for awhile. This forum is actually why I purchased the A90. I've had my A90 for about a week. I'm using the adi-2 as my dac using Hifiman Arya cans. I just wanted to toss my 2 cents in and ask if anyone else had a similar experience. The A90 undoubtably reaches a higher SPL, but in terms of sound and normal listening volumes, I defiantly can't tell the two amps apart. I'm trying to justify keeping the A90, but I'm really struggling to find a reason to. Sound signature, soundstage, etc. It all sounds very similar to my admittedly untrained ears. I've got a balanced cable coming for the Arya to see if that makes a difference (I've read multiple threads suggesting it does) but I'm inclined to return the unit. I'm not sure if this is a testament to the RME or knock against the A90. Like I said, there's noticeably more headroom in the A90, but unless I'm trying to make my ears bleed, I'd never notice or benefit from it in this setup. I've also got some HD6XX's in route. Maybe they'll benefit more from the A90.

I really would like to keep both. Could someone suggest a song or passage that would really articulate the superiority of the A90?

A balanced cable will most certainly make a difference. It will make them louder for any given position on the volume knob than single ended. But if you can already get loud enough, no difference except that.

 

[312elements]

@Jimbob54 @LTig @EchoChamber I've read enough posts in here to know that this forum is fairly focused on the science and measurable differences. Would you agree that any perceived change in presentation, dynamics or soundstage attributed would fall into snake oil territory and that there's little to no reason in pursuing a different solid state amp for the sake of driving the Arya headphones to their "full potential"? It's not that I'm not happy. I think it's more FOMO than anything else that has me looking. There's one local high-fi shop that I've dragged them into to test with different amps, but it's not very conducive to A/B testing.

 

[win]

@Jimbob54 @LTig @EchoChamber I've read enough posts in here to know that this forum is fairly focused on the science and measurable differences. Would you agree that any perceived change in presentation, dynamics or soundstage attributed would fall into snake oil territory and that there's little to no reason in pursuing a different solid state amp for the sake of driving the Arya headphones to their "full potential"? It's not that I'm not happy. I think it's more FOMO than anything else that has me looking. There's one local high-fi shop that I've dragged them into to test with different amps, but it's not very conducive to A/B testing.

Go for the one that looks and feels better to you, because other than max output there is no sonic difference. Go with your gut.

 

[EchoChamber]

@Jimbob54 @LTig @EchoChamber I've read enough posts in here to know that this forum is fairly focused on the science and measurable differences. Would you agree that any perceived change in presentation, dynamics or soundstage attributed would fall into snake oil territory and that there's little to no reason in pursuing a different solid state amp for the sake of driving the Arya headphones to their "full potential"? It's not that I'm not happy. I think it's more FOMO than anything else that has me looking. There's one local high-fi shop that I've dragged them into to test with different amps, but it's not very conducive to A/B testing.

I don’t think it is snake oil (because we’re talking about well engineered products), but we are “splitting hairs” and it is hard to know what’s being perceived is real or not. I did like the ADI-2 headphone output when I had it on my desk and it worked well with my Sundara’s.

Without trying to open that can of worms, I still feel there’s a subjective element, and trust my perception and how the gear makes me connect with the music. Yes it is very subjective but that’s the best I can do at a personal level when comparing gear that tests very well. I don’t care much about bling or “brand prestige”, only about performance and how that translates into my appreciation to music.

Different headphones will be subjectively easier to dicern because speakers have to deal with greater amounts of distortion, non flatness and how they interact with the environment. Some will be more pleasant than others.

 

[312elements]

@EchoChamber that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to chime in.

 

[EchoChamber]

@EchoChamber that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to chime in.

Not everyone will agree with me, I’m not an expert either, just a seasoned enthusiast.

 

[Jimbob54]

@EchoChamber that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to chime in.

I wouldn't quite agree with @EchoChamber but really haven't got the time or inclination to do rigorous enough testing to prove whether I can or not discern between 2 (per measurements) transparent dacs or amps. Personally I trust measurements more than I trust my ears and brain.

What I do know is I can listen to the same track on the same kit on 2 different occasions and "hear" it differently. I fully believe I might "hear" such differences if I swapped kit too. I'm far from convinced it would be as a result of the change in kit.

 

[Jimbob54]

@Jimbob54 @LTig @EchoChamber I've read enough posts in here to know that this forum is fairly focused on the science and measurable differences. Would you agree that any perceived change in presentation, dynamics or soundstage attributed would fall into snake oil territory and that there's little to no reason in pursuing a different solid state amp for the sake of driving the Arya headphones to their "full potential"? It's not that I'm not happy. I think it's more FOMO than anything else that has me looking. There's one local high-fi shop that I've dragged them into to test with different amps, but it's not very conducive to A/B testing.

Sorry, didn't actually answer your question in last post. No, I don't think you will get better sound from any other SS amp. That's not to say you personally might not prefer the sound from an amp that adds (harmonic) distortion, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

What I would say is look into and experiment with EQ, that's where you can get substantial "improvements". Not from more expensive esoteric electronics.

 

[312elements]

@Jimbob54 I really appreciate the feedback. That makes sense too. My pocket book thanks you.

 

[PcChip]

I like to call it the goose bump factor

I actually think I know what you're talking about

after going from a ($120) Fiio K3 to an ($1200) RME ADI-2, after a short time I realized I had lost that feeling.

I bought a g1217 Project Sunrise, plugged it into the RME, and that feeling came back hardcore... so the only logical thing to conclude is harmonic distortion gives me the goose bump feeling?

I don't know, but just reporting how I feel. The RME ADI-2 built-in amp sounds crystal clear, but a bit lifeless to me

 

[312elements]

@PcChip now that I’ve settled into the RME-2, and feel like I’ve got the solid state sound dialed in, I too am in search of something... different to complement it. There’s plenty of source material the benefits from a little harmonic distortion or a different pair of cans for that matter. How do you find the project sunrise? I just pulled the trigger on a wa6se and it should be here in a few days. Curious to see how I like the dark side. It’s been an interesting week I’m of talking to tube amp builders. I’m not going to say that I know the Woo Audio product to be the best in the industry or even towards the top, but I will say that if the dozen or so companies I’ve talked to either via phone or email, they were the only one that I thought wanted my business. Many didn’t even bother to respond to my inquiries. I plan to document the entire journey once I’ve had some time with it, but this has been a pretty wild ride. How would you describe the sunrise in relation to the RME and what cans are you using?

 

[EchoChamber]

I actually think I know what you're talking about

after going from a ($120) Fiio K3 to an ($1200) RME ADI-2, after a short time I realized I had lost that feeling.

I bought a g1217 Project Sunrise, plugged it into the RME, and that feeling came back hardcore... so the only logical thing to conclude is harmonic distortion gives me the goose bump feeling?

I don't know, but just reporting how I feel. The RME ADI-2 built-in amp sounds crystal clear, but a bit lifeless to me

You could argue that harmonic distortion goes both ways (for “good” or for “bad”). My current gear is all well tested at ASR and I still get my goose bumps. IME, it is very much recording dependent.

My issues with tube gear (I owned and built plenty in the beginning of my audio journey) is that the high, pleasant at first, distortion quickly becomes boring because it applies the same layer of distortion to all your recordings, everything ends up sounding the same... Some OTL amps will sound very good indeed without too much obvious tube distortion, but extremely impractical. I think amps like the Nord Purifi will beat it in transparency by a good margin (I had them before going active monitors).

I’d say, if you’re not happy with your Adi-2 and can live without all the features it gives you, try a Schiit Magnius + Modius stack, or if you want to spend more, the Topping A90 + D90. I really like the D90. Or go bunkers and get a Dac8 Stereo. I had/have them all including the Adi-2. Look at my signature to see what I’ve kept...

I’d favor a less is more approach for ultimate connection with the music. Keeping it simple will give you a more transparent system IME.

 

[312elements]

I'm following up on this merely for the sake of others that find themselves on a similar path. As I had mentioned, I ordered a balanced headphone cable for my Aryas to be able to take advantage of the balanced output on the A90. I swapped back and forth a few times between balanced on the A90 to unbalanced on the RME. I definitely couldn't pick one out over the other when volume matched (yes the max volume does increase on the a90 with the balanced cable). Unwilling to except that both of these sound exactly the same despite what so many reviews have mentioned, I tried one last trick. I set the DAC to mono. One ear cup was being driven by the a90 balanced and the other ear cup from the RME unbalanced. I wasn't able to test them at the same time, but this created a much better A/B environment and I learned that my ears don't hear things the same way. Anyway, I swapped back and forth, and I was always able to follow the a90 as sounding ever so marginally better. I don't know if it was the higher voltage, perhaps it was the cable (from Hart Audio) but the difference was there. It required a completely silent room and a lot of concentration, but it was maybe perhaps low single digit percentage points more full sounding. The test being mono didn't really give me much to go on in terms of sound stage or anything like that. I didn't feel it effected dynamics or took the headphones to an entirely different level. It's not a $500 upgrade, this much I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt. Again, I'm posting these findings for the sole purpose of saving someone else the exercise in the future. If you have Hifiman Arya headphones, and you're happy with the volume level you're getting out of your ADI-2 (v2), there is no benefit in going balanced or upgrading to the A90 (my opinion based on above findings). While I haven't tested it, I feel comfortable stating the opinion that the same goes for the THX varieties.

 

[PcChip]

thanks for the info @312elements , I'm sure people will appreciate you taking the time to post your findings

 

[pimy]

Images are now broken but their opamps measured here were not particularly great. Having said that I had a Conductor V2+ and used V5 opamps before and liked them very much.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/281361-hypex-ncore-nc500-build-post4737441.html

Their Conductor 3 DAC specs are quite good though, as well as their massive power levels.
DAC Spec
Channel Separation: 142 dB @ 1KHz, 135 dB @ 20KHz
THD+N: 0.0005% @ 1KHz, 0dBFS
https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/conductor-3/

I really wish someone could send their flagship DAC for Amir to measure.

Having said that, I just bought an RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

Reviews:
https://headfonics.com/burson-conductor-3-review
https://www.headfonia.com/burson-conductor-3xp-review/5/

 

[trl]

The V6 opamps are measuring well under most circumstances (gains between 1X...5X), I actually found a lower background noise when using them inside the Matrix HPA-3B and other headamps too. In respect with THD+N there were pretty close to NE5532, LM49720 etc., at least when used in Low-Pass Filter and output buffer or Voltage-gain stage. The output DC is few mV off for the first 20-30 seconds, until the internal transistors are warming up, but nothing to worry about.

As for the V5 measured on the link provided above, I had replaced the NJM2608 with a V5 dual in my Objective 2 headamp and the background noise decreased (gain was about 3.5X, tested with >120dB/V SPL IEMs), so they are quite respectable opamps (although, not a perfect match in some schematics, especially EMI/RFI related cases).

Here's a review of C3X, if interested: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/burson-conductor-3x.24156/reviews#item-review-23194. It has a huge amount of power and the measured THD+N @ 2V RMS is better than 0.001% (measured with my rather poor Focusrite Solo Gen3).

 

[Jimbob54]

I'm following up on this merely for the sake of others that find themselves on a similar path. As I had mentioned, I ordered a balanced headphone cable for my Aryas to be able to take advantage of the balanced output on the A90. I swapped back and forth a few times between balanced on the A90 to unbalanced on the RME. I definitely couldn't pick one out over the other when volume matched (yes the max volume does increase on the a90 with the balanced cable). Unwilling to except that both of these sound exactly the same despite what so many reviews have mentioned, I tried one last trick. I set the DAC to mono. One ear cup was being driven by the a90 balanced and the other ear cup from the RME unbalanced. I wasn't able to test them at the same time, but this created a much better A/B environment and I learned that my ears don't hear things the same way. Anyway, I swapped back and forth, and I was always able to follow the a90 as sounding ever so marginally better. I don't know if it was the higher voltage, perhaps it was the cable (from Hart Audio) but the difference was there. It required a completely silent room and a lot of concentration, but it was maybe perhaps low single digit percentage points more full sounding. The test being mono didn't really give me much to go on in terms of sound stage or anything like that. I didn't feel it effected dynamics or took the headphones to an entirely different level. It's not a $500 upgrade, this much I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt. Again, I'm posting these findings for the sole purpose of saving someone else the exercise in the future. If you have Hifiman Arya headphones, and you're happy with the volume level you're getting out of your ADI-2 (v2), there is no benefit in going balanced or upgrading to the A90 (my opinion based on above findings). While I haven't tested it, I feel comfortable stating the opinion that the same goes for the THX varieties.

Good to see someone with more patience than I have supporting one of the truisms often stated here. If you have a transparent amp with plenty of power for whichever cans you own, there is little to nothing to be gained from amp swapping, balance /single ended swapping etc.

None of this "sweeter mids, drier treble" type nonsense that is increasingly seeping into here due to uncontrolled listening.

 

[312elements]

@Jimbob54 It actually gets more interesting. I may start a new thread to speak to the entire journey. The short version is that I've been listening to WA6SE all week... On my Arya cans I can't hear the noise floor, but on my HD6XX I can if I'm looking for it. Other than that, I don't think I could pass an A/B test. I wish there was a better way of A/B testing than yanking the jack out of the amplifier. My perception gets really messed up by the sound change/interruption. I don't regret the purchase because it provides a better experience and it's a little bit more fun, but damn if I can say that one sounds better or even different than the other. Moral of the story is that if I feel like spending money from here on out, it will be on headphones.