RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE

[spnc]

Noob question as prospective ADI buyer.

Could someone convince me to buy the current ADI-2 or upcoming ADI-2/4 instead of the equally highly rated (by Amir and everyone on the Internet) and equally powerful Topping A90 Discrete (145db max output for the A90D versus 144db for the ADI-2), all for 1/2 or 1/3 of the ADI's respective price (the A90D costs 600 bucks)?

TOPPING A90 Discrete / A90 Headphone Amp

Elevate your audio experience with the TOPPING A90D headphone amplifier. With its fully discrete NFCA modules, R2R volume control, and exceptional specifications, the A90D sets a new standard for solid-state amplifiers. Experience best-in-class clarity, transparency, and power output, along with...

apos.audio

Topping A90 Discrete Review (Headphone Amp & Preamp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping A90 Discrete balanced preamplifier and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $599. Announcement was supposed to be a few hours from now but one of the distributor already released it so here we go. As...

www.audiosciencereview.com

At the end of the day, if the specs and power are similar to each other, do you pay the premium for RME/the ADIs purely because of their sonic quality? Is it noticeable? Do products like the Topping feel more 'compressed'/'cloudier' while the RMEs signal will sound cleaner, more airy/pristine/natural/detailed/analytical?

After seeing this on Reddit it occurred to me that it might be why the ADI is so widely acclaimed... ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/HeadphoneAdvice/comments/vds11i

 

[cheapmessiah]

Noob question as prospective ADI buyer.

Could someone convince me to buy the current ADI-2 or upcoming ADI-2/4 instead of the equally highly rated (by Amir and everyone on the Internet) and equally powerful Topping A90 Discrete (145db max output for the A90D versus 144db for the ADI-2), all for 1/2 or 1/3 of the ADI's respective price (the A90D costs 600 bucks)?

TOPPING A90 Discrete / A90 Headphone Amp

Elevate your audio experience with the TOPPING A90D headphone amplifier. With its fully discrete NFCA modules, R2R volume control, and exceptional specifications, the A90D sets a new standard for solid-state amplifiers. Experience best-in-class clarity, transparency, and power output, along with...

apos.audio

Topping A90 Discrete Review (Headphone Amp & Preamp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping A90 Discrete balanced preamplifier and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $599. Announcement was supposed to be a few hours from now but one of the distributor already released it so here we go. As...

www.audiosciencereview.com

At the end of the day, if the specs and power are similar to each other, do you pay the premium for RME/the ADIs purely because of their sonic quality? Is it noticeable? Do products like the Topping feel more 'compressed'/'cloudier' while the RMEs signal will sound cleaner, more airy/pristine/natural/detailed/analytical?

After seeing this on Reddit it occurred to me that it might be why the ADI is so widely acclaimed... ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/HeadphoneAdvice/comments/vds11i

View attachment 215753

Do you realize A90 is just an amp, and the ADI is an all in one (don't remember if it's also an ADC) with DSP capabilities and some other functionalities?

 

[spnc]

Do you realize A90 is just an amp, and the ADI is an all in one (don't remember if it's also an ADC) with DSP capabilities and some other functionalities?

Ok thank you. Sold xD Good job!

 

[Acerun]

Since I don't need balanced connection and definitely not more power, I will stick to the predecessor. But if RME would provide a 10+ PEQ.......

You say definitely not more power but some headphones want a lot of power and I was noodling about an a90 which you can get relatively cheap now on the used market... It also has the XLR connection for headphone output... Not saying the RME doesn't have the power but I know I'm cranking rather high on it with some headphones. Curious if anyone has paired an A90 with the RME and found even better results.

 

[Grotti]

You say definitely not more power but some headphones want a lot of power and I was noodling about an a90 which you can get relatively cheap now on the used market... It also has the XLR connection for headphone output... Not saying the RME doesn't have the power but I know I'm cranking rather high on it with some headphones. Curious if anyone has paired an A90 with the RME and found even better results.

I own a very efficient headphone so I don't care too much for power and I try to prevent myself from hearing loss. If you don't want to do the math and calculate the achievable sound pressure with a given headphone let's put it that way: there is a reason, why Amir tested a million headphones with the RME. And Amir is known for testing "up to skull resonating levels" .

And from my memory there weren't many headphones, where the RME ran out of power....

 

[spnc]

I own a very efficient headphone so I don't care too much for power and I try to prevent myself from hearing loss. If you don't want to do the math and calculate the achievable sound pressure with a given headphone let's put it that way: there is a reason, why Amir tested a million headphones with the RME. And Amir is known for testing "up to skull resonating levels" .

And from my memory there weren't many headphones, where the RME ran out of power....

Well good for you but some people care for it and the hearing loss argument is not solid. Obviously we don't want that, yet it's good to have enough margin at 'skull resonating levels' and 'maxed out sound pressure' from time to time, to A/B test and immerse ourselves with the music we produce (especially relevant with electronic/dance floor music).

So if RME could give their best shot when it comes to power it would the icing on the cake, although I probably don't care that much since I'll stack a Fireface with the ADI so that should be more than enough power anyway? I mean if it doesn't affect the quality of the product, how come more power would be a bad idea??

 

[spnc]

There is a great wishlist here already.

ADI-2/4 Prototyp (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

Nice!

 

[spnc]

Currently 94 views, I bet that goes up a bit now...

He says bigger DSP and probably more EQ bands

This other vid which hasn't been posted here so far I think:

 

[Trell]

Well good for you but some people care for it and the hearing loss argument is not solid. Obviously we don't want that, yet it's good to have enough margin at 'skull resonating levels' and 'maxed out sound pressure' from time to time, to A/B test and immerse ourselves with the music we produce (especially relevant with electronic/dance floor music).

So if RME could give their best shot when it comes to power it would the icing on the cake, although I probably don't care that much since I'll stack a Fireface with the ADI so that should be more than enough power anyway? I mean if it doesn't affect the quality of the product, how come more power would be a bad idea??

The new RME ADI-2/4 will have (preliminary) about 3.6W per channel in balanced mode while for reference the ADI-2 DAC FS [edit: has no balanced mode] has 1.5W, but that only increases the volume a little more than 3 dB. So just increasing the headphone amps power output very quickly meets the wall of diminishing returns.

Edit: The 3.6W per channel comes from:

 

[spnc]

The new RME ADI-2/4 will have (preliminary) about 3.6W per channel in balanced mode while for reference the ADI-2 DAC FS [edit: has no balanced mode] has 1.5W, but that only increases the volume a little more than 3 dB. So just increasing the headphone amps power output very quickly meets the wall of diminishing returns.

Edit: The 3.6W per channel comes from:

Very promising improvements on all fronts.

 

[Rja4000]

The new RME ADI-2/4 will have (preliminary) about 3.6W per channel in balanced mode while for reference the ADI-2 DAC FS [edit: has no balanced mode] has 1.5W,

And the current ADI-Pro fs R has 2.9W.
Not even 1dB difference.

 

[Trell]

And the current ADI-Pro fs R has 2.9W.
Not even 1dB difference.

On the other hand I wonder if some these headphones requiring this much power are quite simply badly designed and engineered like speakers dipping into the 1 Ohm territory.

 

[Rja4000]

On the other hand I wonder if some these headphones requiring this much power are quite simply badly designed and engineered like speakers dipping into the 1 Ohm territory.

Well,
It may be that they're using a cutting edge technology that just requires more power.
As an example, the electrostatic drivers.

 

[Veri]

Well,
It may be that they're using a cutting edge technology that just requires more power.
As an example, the electrostatic drivers.

...which need entirely different amplification topology than other headphones.

 

[spnc]

tl;dr - That's a tricky question to answer, because the answer is both. Loudness preferences are subjective, strictly speaking, because my loudness preferences may not match the preferences of someone else. Nonetheless, these preferences are objectively quantifiable (and the unit of measurement is watts).

Long answer - plugging my Aeons directly into the RME, with a little bit of EQ to correct the tonality (bump up the bass and tame the upper mids), I sometimes find myself maxing out the volume knob on some songs. One example would be Dire Straits's "Money for Nothing" from the 1985 album Brothers In Arms - the version in my lossless library is a rip from the original 1985 CD, where the mastering is punchy and not compressed like later remasters. Especially during that intro with Sting's uncredited vocals, I even find myself craving more power.

The SMSL comes in and saves the day. This thing has so much power that I can make myself cringe without even pushing it to its limit, whereas the RME doesn't get that blisteringly loud. Now, my Aeons are pretty inefficient at 93 dB/mW, but there are headphones that are much less sensitive - take the DCA Stealth, for example. Those have a sensitivity rating of 86 dB/mW, and if my RME is struggling to give me as much power as I want sometimes with my Aeons, the Stealth will absolutely present more such circumstances. I bring it up because it's a headphone I'm considering.

Yes, I can disable EQ and the song becomes loud enough, but then I lose tonality. Still other songs which are compressed to oblivion (like the example I posted in this thread) play loudly enough that the RME provides more than enough power for enjoyment, so I can plug directly into the RME. But why bother being so hands-on all the time? The point of the hobby is to just set up and forget about it, and to enjoy the music with a simple interface - one plug, one volume knob. To that effect, even if the RME works 95% of the time, because the SMSL works 100% of the time, I have incentive to keep it. Plus my desk looks neat and clean, without a ridiculous 2xTRS -> 4-pin XLR adapter sticking out of my DAC, lol - aesthetics matter too.

Edit - Was just looking at the manual and it seems that an adapter won't make a difference for the Aeons; the RME simply can't push more current than about 250 mA:View attachment 212643

Hi @ayane I submitted my concerns and your feedback on the RME forum/thread and someone came up with this reply - thoughts?

ADI-2/4 Prototyp (Page 3) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

Are you sure you run ADI-2 with “Auto Reference Level” = ON, not limited to “Low Power” - do you see dBr, not straight dB, when dialing the Volume?

If yes, I suggest to overthink your listening behavior.
The levels you are using are obviously ear-damaging if applied more than a few minutes a day.


To set this into perspective I did measurements with my calibrated Bruel&Kjaer 4153 Artificial Ear and Sound Level Meter according to OSHA and NIOSH standards.

Fortunately I have the Dan Clark Audio Aeon 2 Noire, spec’ed 13 Ohm, 92 dB/1mW (the Aeon is: 13 Ohm 93 dB/1mW), and the original 1985 Dire Straits Brothers In Arms CD release.


Setup:
• AEON 2 Noire connected single ended to
• RME ADI-2 Pro, at 0 dBr Volume (1) and
• no EQ, for better comparability (2),
• playing “Money For Nothing” 1985’s release version (3):


The song’s intro, before the first drum-hits, reads:
• 89 dB SPL LEQ A (LEQ is the time-accumulated noise dose).
• 110 dB SPL Peaks.


The main part of the song reads:
• 100 dB SPL LEQ A.
To prevent hearing loss no more than 15 min a day of this level is allowed, and only if the rest of the day your sound level is below 80 dB, NIOSH standard (4).

• 134 dB SPL Peaks , it’s a very dynamic master.

134 dB SPL is the level on a small bore pistol shooting range, which no-one would attend without hearing protection.



REMARKS:
(1) ADI-2 has another +6 dB of Volume Dial reserve above 0 dBr, e.g. for very quiet songs.

(2) Some amount of bass-EQ wouldn’t completely change the picture, dBA doesn’t measure the bass-range.

(3) The 1985’s CD release of Brothers In Arms is indeed ca. 12 dB quieter - and more dynamic (!) than the 1996 Remaster that is commonly available in streaming.

(4) The Bruel&Kjaer 4153 Artificial Ear reads a bit soft from 2-5 kHz, so the real SPL figures at ones natural ear might well be 3-5 dB higher than the measurement.
This would, depending on your ear’s anatomy, bring the max. exposure time further down to ca. 1/2 of the mentioned 15 min!


Personal annotation:
My comfortable listening level for this album with Aeon 2 Noire is RME ADI-2 Pro’s Volume at -32 dBr, this is 68 dB A LEQ and still 102 dB SPL Peaks.
Song’s vocals sound slightly above the level of normal natural conversation then.

 

[spnc]

Thoughts?

ADI-2/4 Prototyp (Page 3) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

Be assured:

ADI-2 can drive EVERY mythical “hard to drive” headphone to more than sufficient level if you have a healthy hearing and want to keep it like this.

E.g. I run AKG K-1000 with 12 dB of bass boost EQ, single ended, and still have a Volume margin.

AKG K-1000 is 120 Ohm 74 dB/mW – much worse than Hifiman Susvara’s 60 Ohm 83 dB/mW (and no EQ needed), or Abyss‘s AB1266™ PHI TC 47 Ohm 88 dB/mW.

 

[ayane]

Thoughts?

Hey! Thanks for replying. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I use DSP, which reduces the output level for me quite a bit before the ADI-2 comes in.

1. I use equalization on my headphone (through software, not the ADI-2) and overall, that pushes the level down by about 6 dB or so. Even though I say I'm bumping up the bass, the EQ software has a pre-amp to make sure clipping is avoided, so what's really happening is everything apart from the bass is being knocked down by 6 dB. Then there's a little bit of reduction in the treble, because the original Aeon can be unpleasantly sibilant around 7-8 kHz. (Whenever Lucky Ali produces the /s/ sound in "Ek Pal Ka Jeena" from Kaho Naa... Pyaar Hai, I cringe with EQ turned off.)
2. I also use ReplayGain in album mode per ITU-R BS.1770 (volume normalized to -23 dB LUFS with 1 dB of headroom). This album has a gain of -0.45 dB, so there's an additional 1.5 dB reduction during playback.

I do have my ADI-2 set to auto reference level though, with dBr on the display. Turning off DSP makes it substantially louder. With DSP turned on in player software, though, the intro part of "Money for Nothing" is just not loud enough at 0 dB on the ADI-2. The rest of the song, however, is very loud - unbearably so with DSP turned off and the RME at 0 dBr. DSP is important for me, and I don't like to switch it off just for the sake of headroom.

Subjective part - I am careful to never play too loud and damage my ears, and I only listen to one or two songs at louder than moderate level at a time when I want to have fun. I unfortunately don't have a dB SPL number to quantify my subjective opinion of "moderate," but I certainly don't think it's abnormally loud, because it's about the same loudness as I'd watch TV.

I trust the person on the RME forum, and I have a suspicion that my headphones might be less efficient than the stated 93 dB/mW. I've never been able to get them even close to "loud enough" plugged directly into a laptop or phone, no DSP (even on "ordinary" songs with far lower dynamic range). For me, "Loud enough" is like movie theater loudness, or a little bit less than concert loudness, subjectively.

 

[spnc]

Hey! Thanks for replying. I think I mentioned this earlier, but I use DSP, which reduces the output level for me quite a bit before the ADI-2 comes in.

1. I use equalization on my headphone (through software, not the ADI-2) and overall, that pushes the level down by about 6 dB or so. Even though I say I'm bumping up the bass, the EQ software has a pre-amp to make sure clipping is avoided, so what's really happening is everything apart from the bass is being knocked down by 6 dB. Then there's a little bit of reduction in the treble, because the original Aeon can be unpleasantly sibilant around 7-8 kHz. (Whenever Lucky Ali produces the /s/ sound in "Ek Pal Ka Jeena" from Kaho Naa... Pyaar Hai, I cringe with EQ turned off.)
2. I also use ReplayGain in album mode per ITU-R BS.1770 (volume normalized to -23 dB LUFS with 1 dB of headroom). This album has a gain of -0.45 dB, so there's an additional 1.5 dB reduction during playback.

I do have my ADI-2 set to auto reference level though, with dBr on the display. Turning off DSP makes it substantially louder. With DSP turned on in player software, though, the intro part of "Money for Nothing" is just not loud enough at 0 dB on the ADI-2. The rest of the song, however, is very loud - unbearably so with DSP turned off and the RME at 0 dBr. DSP is important for me, and I don't like to switch it off just for the sake of headroom.

Subjective part - I am careful to never play too loud and damage my ears, and I only listen to one or two songs at louder than moderate level at a time when I want to have fun. I unfortunately don't have a dB SPL number to quantify my subjective opinion of "moderate," but I certainly don't think it's abnormally loud, because it's about the same loudness as I'd watch TV.

I trust the person on the RME forum, and I have a suspicion that my headphones might be less efficient than the stated 93 dB/mW. I've never been able to get them even close to "loud enough" plugged directly into a laptop or phone, no DSP (even on "ordinary" songs with far lower dynamic range). For me, "Loud enough" is like movie theater loudness, or a little bit less than concert loudness, subjectively.

Thank you @ayane

Just forwarding the guy's reply fyi:

If I get this right you have your music down to -24 dB LUFS, then additional -6 dB by DSP’s EQ.

-23 LUFS already is a very low target loudness, in - not only my - opinion the target is too low for music.
The lowest any music streaming service uses is -16 LUFS, see:

LOUDNESS TARGETS FOR STREAMING PLATFORMS CHART
(bit down the page): https://www.masteringthemix.com/blo...dio-for-soundcloud-itunes-spotify-and-youtube

Have a look at ADI-2’s level meter, set to “Pre FX”, to see the unused headroom.
6-9 dB at least I guess, more with your “too quiet” songs.

Anyway, ADI-2’s Volume can be dialed up to +6 dBr, maybe that’s already enough for your purpose.

If you don‘t feed close to full scale digital level into ADI-2 Pro (in fact there‘s 6 dB of extra gain, so -6 dBFS is enough) you don‘t get the full wattage it’s capable out of it.

Like driving a car in the 1st gear only.

This won‘t change if you double or triple the power of the next model.
You don‘t need more power, but less negative gain in your chain, I‘d already explained that.
No extra amp needed, just fitting settings.

ADI-2 Pro already is capable to drive almost every headphone on the market to sound levels that lead to immediate permanent ear damage - or fry the ‘phones if they can’t stand the power.

The ADI-2/4 will have a balanced Pentaconn connector with a balanced amp that is active all the time, without switching into a special configuration that limits other functions.
This alone will fourfold the available power for most configurations.

On top of that it will be some stronger anyway, if you follow RME’s videos.

I don’t think you will find it lacking in power.

 

[spnc]

And RME staff:

But I understand as per ASR forum that the 1st gen ADI is not powerful enough, especially with high impedance headphones?

Was just looking at the manual and it seems that an adapter won't make a difference for the Aeons; the RME simply can't push more current than about 250 mA

The ADIs show very high output wattage for high impedance headphones among the units tested at ASR. This should be obvious when reading (!) the reviews. Simple reason is that most units offer a max of around 19 dBu at 300 Ohms, but the ADI reaches +22 dBu (317 mW). Make that another +6 dB for the balanced Pro, a whopping 1.26 W, which is able to fry most of the high impedance models as they typically not stand more than 500 mW. To compare to some other marketing claims: that is 55 Volt peak to peak at the headphone output.

Then the obvious confusion about level and power. This Aeon user never got to 250 mA, he does not need more power, but has a level issue in his signal chain. I bet that he did not use the available +6 dB Volume as he feared distortion or noise. A quick look at the available level meters would have made clear that the output is far from max and the input level is far too low.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

 

[ayane]

Then the obvious confusion about level and power. This Aeon user never got to 250 mA, he does not need more power, but has a level issue in his signal chain. I bet that he did not use the available +6 dB Volume as he feared distortion or noise. A quick look at the available level meters would have made clear that the output is far from max and the input level is far too low.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

I do feel slightly called out! It's true I've shied away from testing the headroom before deciding to use my other headphone amp because I was worried about driving the ADI-2 into clipping, but I'm not sure I agree with this entirely.

Since you've replied to me earlier this week, I've tested some songs and the level meters every now and then do come to close to max (even with software ReplayGain & EQ turned on) when there are very deep/low notes playing:

• Tsuyoshi Ujiki's "Dry Your Tears BGM" from Hokuto No Ken Soundtrack III (original 1986 CD) hits -9 dB peaks, but 0 dBr is quiet. I have to switch ReplayGain to "track mode" for this song (-1 dB peaks, highest I've ever seen) to become "loud," but not "loud enough," at 0 dBr.
• Tupac's "Hail Mary" from The Don Killuminati (original 1996 CD) hits -7 dB peaks and 0 dBr is just "moderately loud." Same goes for a couple of other songs from this album.
• Michael Jackson's "Thriller" from Thriller (first digital pressing 1982 CD with pre-emphasis) hits -3 dB peaks and 0 dBr is "loud," but not "loud enough" (pre-emphasis removed). Couple of other songs from this album also don't get "loud enough," just "loud."
• Hans Zimmer's "Imperfect Lock" from Interstellar (expanded edition 2020 CD) hits -2 dB peaks and 0 dBr is just not loud enough. Many songs from this album don't get higher than "moderately loud" at 0 dBr while hitting -2 dB peaks.

With the exception of the first song, the highest the level meter goes is -2 dB, so definitely not driving in first gear here. Yes, much of the time it is below -10 dB for the entirety of some songs, even with my DSP settings. Again, for most of the music I listen to, the RME works like a charm and gets plenty loud before I even need to push the volume to 0 dBr. It is just that 5% of the time that it simply runs out at 0 dBr. It was the Hans Zimmer music that made me decide to use my SMSL SP200 originally.

Again, I apologize for not having SPL data to quantify my subjective claims of loudness, but I take great care of my hearing and would not risk playing at levels that would be fatiguing except for one or two few songs at a time at most. This may or may not be helpful, but here's how I would describe different levels of loudness:

• "Quiet" is like overhearing music playing from a phone across from the room
• "Moderate" is like a normal conversation/TV listening level
• "Moderately loud" is an enthusiastic conversation.
• "Loud" is watching a movie or playing music on my speakers at a "fun" level that's tiring after a few minutes
• "Loud enough" is like movie theater loudness, and not really fun except for a few brief moments.

"Loud enough" makes me cringe if it's any more than one or two quick hits in an otherwise quieter song. My headphones sometimes just don't get "loud," let alone "loud enough," especially in the low bass. It's not an issue with my hearing, because I am sensitive to those frequencies when listening to speakers (or even other headphones). As I suspected earlier, I'm not sure the 93 dB/mW specification for these headphones is correct.