RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE - RIAA mode measurements

[Erogen]

As said, I can adjust the height of the red and blue curve by adjusting Azimuth but can't get them closer with my tonearm. Either the blue curve is above the red or vice versa. This also alters the shape of the curves...

Here you can find measurements of other cartridges. They look quite similar in this region.
From my point of view mechanical problems will show up as increased distortion that I can't see here.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script, SJPlot, written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It's true, adjusting the azimuth compensates for crosstalk in the channels.
However, there's a different problem here.
Maybe the cantilever suspension is the problem, or maybe the brush suspension is the problem, or maybe the tip is glued in crookedly, etc. There could be many causes. The cause is sometimes difficult to find.
This brush, which is a good idea, isn't working perfectly after all these years. The brush design is such that it's not perfectly centered, but off to the side, which can also affect the tip position if the brush suspension has lost its properties.
You need to make a few, or even a dozen, micro adjustments and a dozen or so measurements to see if the crosstalk is smooth. I would start by measuring without using the brush.
This is a common problem.
I return such styluses for warranty, as I believe they are defective.
Unfortunately, this can't be corrected in the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

 

[Erogen]

As said, I can adjust the height of the red and blue curve by adjusting Azimuth but can't get them closer with my tonearm. Either the blue curve is above the red or vice versa. This also alters the shape of the curves...

Here you can find measurements of other cartridges. They look quite similar in this region.
From my point of view mechanical problems will show up as increased distortion that I can't see here.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script, SJPlot, written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The problem isn't the proximity of the two channels; the problem is that there's a significant difference in crosstalk in one of the channels, about 5 dB. That's the problem. It should be relatively smooth, but unfortunately, it's very jagged.

 

[JP]

As said, I can adjust the height of the red and blue curve by adjusting Azimuth but can't get them closer with my tonearm. Either the blue curve is above the red or vice versa. This also alters the shape of the curves...

Here you can find measurements of other cartridges. They look quite similar in this region.
From my point of view mechanical problems will show up as increased distortion that I can't see here.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script, SJPlot, written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

He’s been told a number of times, and shown all the measurements. Some folks should just measure DACs. Little chance of forward progress here.

 

[Erogen]

He’s been told a number of times, and shown all the measurements. Some folks should just measure DACs. Little chance of forward progress here.

Hello,
I know how your script works. It's a very good tool.
It's an essential tool for setting the most linear response possible for your existing cartridge, using the parametric equalizer in the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE.
It's also very useful for measuring newly purchased cartridges and styluses.
A very big problem with vinyl records is the inevitable, usually very high-amplitude resonance in the range up to 20 Hz. Your script doesn't show this – because it wasn't created for such a measurement.
I won't comment on your thread.
I wish you all the best.

 

[JP]

Learn something. Please.

 

[Erogen]

Learn something. Please.

Hello
I'm still learning something every day.
Here I recorded a video of playing back a test signal used to measure the frequency response of a phono cartridge using your script, a CA-TSR-1007 test disc.
Most people using your script don't realize what happens during the playback of the test signal.
The frequency response of a phono cartridge is one important thing; another is any unwanted signals generated during playback.
Using the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE and your measurement script, I'll equalize the phono cartridge signal to be as linear as possible and remove any added signal up to 20Hz.
I just need to find some time to take some measurements and adjust the parametric equalizer accordingly.
It's simple.
I need it to digitize recordings that don't have digital editing.

 

[JP]

That’s not the topic. Your confusion in regard to one-per-revolution friction effects, is.

Re resonance, which is broadly understood, using a filter only solves for affects post where the filter is applied. It does nothing for FM, tracking, etc. Better to mitigate with the more traditional, also well-known methods.

All of this has been explained to your numerous banned personas many times.

 

[Erogen]

That’s not the topic. Your confusion in regard to one-per-revolution friction effects, is.

Re resonance, which is broadly understood, using a filter only solves for affects post where the filter is applied. It does nothing for FM, tracking, etc. Better to mitigate with the more traditional, also well-known methods.

All of this has been explained to your numerous banned personas many times.

I'm not going to do this using more traditional methods (outdated methods) when I can do it all faster, better, more accurately, and more conveniently with the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE. I'll leave the traditional methods to the vinyl enthusiasts who swoon at the mention of digital audio.
I'll say it again: I think your measurement script is a very good tool.

 

[JP]

Then you again fail to understand the problem and the issues it manifests. Disappointing.

 

[Erogen]

Then you again fail to understand the problem and the issues it manifests. Disappointing.

Dear colleague, I occasionally need to digitize a single music recording, sometimes an entire album, occasionally.
I don't need a technical solution for a very complex technical project.
What problems will I encounter if, instead of a traditional phono preamplifier, I use the digital phono preamplifier function of the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE?
I believe that a digital preamplifier, using a parametric equalizer, will much more accurately equalize the cartridge's usually very uneven frequency response, and will much more accurately reduce the high-amplitude resonance effect in the received signal up to 20 Hz, and more precisely equalize the channel balance and other parameters.

Without purchasing an additional, often expensive, traditional preamplifier.

 

[Erogen]

Then you again fail to understand the problem and the issues it manifests. Disappointing.

Your script would be much more functional if, based on the measurement, it generated a configuration file for the parametric equalizer in the RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE to even out the frequency response and reduce the amplitude of the unwanted resonance in the range up to 20Hz.

 

[JP]

Again you fail to understand. I’m done.

 

[Erogen]

Again you fail to understand. I’m done.

With reciprocity.

 

[Erogen]

Heh
What have I done here? It looks terrible, but it sounds great.

- First, I used the (De)Rumble filter, which is included in the RME, and should be enabled.
- Second, I used the Mono-Bass filter, which is also included in the RME, and should be enabled.
- Third, I equalized the frequency response with a parametric equalizer so that it was as close as possible in both channels, meaning within the appropriate range. I boosted and/or lowered the frequency response in the right channel and the left channel.
- Fourth, I evened out the crosstalk; it's now slightly uneven, in the range of 0.5-1 dB. This is, of course, inaudible. I won't correct it, because it's a gamble, spinning the headshell around its own axis.
Of course, the most striking thing is the drop in low frequencies, but it turns out that's how it should be with turntables and vinyl records.

Wikipedia:

Rumble Filters
"Because these effects generate a predominantly vertical component at the stylus, which corresponds to the difference signal in stereo reproduction, incorporating a high-pass filter acting only on the difference channels can be very effective in reducing rumble without sacrificing bass. Such a filter combines the two channels to mono at very low frequencies, which is generally not considered to have any effect on stereo perception, although it can alter the sound balance (often for the better) by changing the way resonant room modes are stimulated (reducing corner-to-corner stimulation). The original circuit was designed in 1978 by Jeff Macaulay and presented as a circuit idea in Wireless World. Most so-called rumble filters simply work by rolling off the low-frequency response, which is detrimental to sound quality."

RME (user manual)

Turntables are mechanical trackers and therefore generate a variety of unwanted sounds: low-frequency rumble, microphone effects, the sound of the stylus in the groove, and, of course, the characteristic crackling noise caused by dust. The ADI-2/4 Pro helps keep these lateral sounds under control.
First, an astonishing effect: when you switch playback to mono, susceptibility to acoustic feedback, low-frequency rumble, and groove noise are significantly reduced. Because no one wants to listen to records in mono, and the bass on vinyl is mono anyway for manufacturing reasons, the ADI-2/4 Pro SE includes a mono mixing circuit that only mixes the bass section. RIAA Mono Bass, available in the Analog Input menu, causes virtually no change in the sound but significantly reduces background noise.
With unusually high bass, especially when combined with loudness and a quieter LP, the rumble visible in the low bands can reach the same level as in the other bands when listening to music. In such cases, a distinct rumble filter (subsonic or infrasonic) is helpful. The analog input's Band 1 PEQ can be switched to a high-pass filter, and the frequency and Q factor can be adjusted to suit your needs. Combining a high-pass filter with a band 2 attenuating shelving filter creates an extremely steep-slope filter with optimal frequency response for music and the best possible attenuation for everything else.
I wanted to thank the creator of the script for measuring the frequency response of phono cartridges once again. "JP," you're a genius.
It's worth it, really worth buying that RME 2/4. It costs a fortune, but it's worth it.

 

[AnalogSteph]

-3 dB at 100 Hz and -6 dB at 50 Hz? Isn't that a bit... lean?

 

[Erogen]

-3 dB at 100 Hz and -6 dB at 50 Hz? Isn't that a bit... lean?

RME's default filter settings are shown here.

Some records are more centered and more even, while others are less centered and more uneven.
Some turntable cartridges have a better mechanism for suppressing unwanted low frequencies, while others have a worse system.
Some turntables have a system for suppressing unwanted low frequencies, while others have no system for suppressing unwanted low frequencies.

These filters are configurable; you can set them to your preference.

 

[MC_RME]

Our default rumble filter does not cause -3 dB at 100 Hz etc...

 

[Bland_username42069]

This is what the test signal from the Clearaudio Frequency Response Test Record CA-TRS-1007 used to measure the frequency response of a phono cartridge looks like.
Pay attention to the signal amplitude level at low frequencies.
This is your biggest problem.

All of that to the left should be below 40hz which is why one turns on rumble filter to get rid of it. This is nothing to do with the phono stage itself

Heh
What have I done here? It looks terrible, but it sounds great.

- First, I used the (De)Rumble filter, which is included in the RME, and should be enabled.
- Second, I used the Mono-Bass filter, which is also included in the RME, and should be enabled.
- Third, I equalized the frequency response with a parametric equalizer so that it was as close as possible in both channels, meaning within the appropriate range. I boosted and/or lowered the frequency response in the right channel and the left channel.
- Fourth, I evened out the crosstalk; it's now slightly uneven, in the range of 0.5-1 dB. This is, of course, inaudible. I won't correct it, because it's a gamble, spinning the headshell around its own axis.
Of course, the most striking thing is the drop in low frequencies, but it turns out that's how it should be with turntables and vinyl records.

Wikipedia:

Rumble Filters
"Because these effects generate a predominantly vertical component at the stylus, which corresponds to the difference signal in stereo reproduction, incorporating a high-pass filter acting only on the difference channels can be very effective in reducing rumble without sacrificing bass. Such a filter combines the two channels to mono at very low frequencies, which is generally not considered to have any effect on stereo perception, although it can alter the sound balance (often for the better) by changing the way resonant room modes are stimulated (reducing corner-to-corner stimulation). The original circuit was designed in 1978 by Jeff Macaulay and presented as a circuit idea in Wireless World. Most so-called rumble filters simply work by rolling off the low-frequency response, which is detrimental to sound quality."

RME (user manual)

Turntables are mechanical trackers and therefore generate a variety of unwanted sounds: low-frequency rumble, microphone effects, the sound of the stylus in the groove, and, of course, the characteristic crackling noise caused by dust. The ADI-2/4 Pro helps keep these lateral sounds under control.
First, an astonishing effect: when you switch playback to mono, susceptibility to acoustic feedback, low-frequency rumble, and groove noise are significantly reduced. Because no one wants to listen to records in mono, and the bass on vinyl is mono anyway for manufacturing reasons, the ADI-2/4 Pro SE includes a mono mixing circuit that only mixes the bass section. RIAA Mono Bass, available in the Analog Input menu, causes virtually no change in the sound but significantly reduces background noise.
With unusually high bass, especially when combined with loudness and a quieter LP, the rumble visible in the low bands can reach the same level as in the other bands when listening to music. In such cases, a distinct rumble filter (subsonic or infrasonic) is helpful. The analog input's Band 1 PEQ can be switched to a high-pass filter, and the frequency and Q factor can be adjusted to suit your needs. Combining a high-pass filter with a band 2 attenuating shelving filter creates an extremely steep-slope filter with optimal frequency response for music and the best possible attenuation for everything else.
I wanted to thank the creator of the script for measuring the frequency response of phono cartridges once again. "JP," you're a genius.
It's worth it, really worth buying that RME 2/4. It costs a fortune, but it's worth it.

View attachment 512919

View attachment 512920

no offense but that looks a complete mess

 

[Erogen]

Our default rumble filter does not cause -3 dB at 100 Hz etc...

The phono cartridge has this response, as shown in the measurement, only in RIAA mode, without the default Rumble filter, and without the default Mono Bass filter.
Further measurements show the effect on the frequency response of using the Rumble filter, the Mono Bass filter, and using both default filters simultaneously.
The Clearaudio Frequency Response Test Record CA-TRS-1007 test signals were used for the measurement.
The measurement script by "JP" was used for the measurement.

I'm pleased with the results

I also adjusted the equalization, channel balance, and frequency response of my phono cartridge's higher frequencies - see the previous graph.

Now I'm very happy.

 

[Bland_username42069]

you started off with near perfectly flat cartridge response from 50 to 500hz and ended up creating a 5db slope…