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Richard Vandersteen does not like "digital things" that correct room modes/inefficiencies

Snarfie

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Saw this John Atkinson interview with Richard Vandersteen. In minute 12:55 Richard stated that "digital things" i guess Room correction software it does sounds manipulated not musical??. He Stated also that where there are peaks or dips in a frequency curve you leave them as they are. Curious thing is that Mathaudio Room EQ is doing that with dips because they think if they correct that it could damage a driver. Basically Richard favours to use a sub woofer (vandertones minute 12:45) to compensate for room modes an in minute 14:18 he favors to use rather diffusion material instead of absorption material. Is there a most desirable way to correct your room besides treating your room 100% with diffusion or absorption materials. Another interesting subject is time domain where speakers (can) work in efficiently this is discussed in minute 4:38 they are talking about transparency/imaging/staging what ever you want to call it. Atkinson conclude in minute 6:28 that there are a view speaker companies that know how to reach this goal are there not more.?
I own Vandersteen model 1 speakers an i must say if placed correctly an for that matter using room correction software they sound amazing. They are extreme transparent an deliver an impressive staging.

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=600&v=P8A6hN8kgC4&feature=emb_logo



 
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OK, Boomer.
You probably refer to their age an their idea's designing speakers. Could be (i also put some question marks about some of there statements) but can you tell me which todays modern speaker brands can deliver the same quality in imaging/staging for an reasonable price under a 1000,- Euro/USD each.
 
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SIY

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You probably refer to their age an their idea's designing speakers. Could be (i also put some question marks about some of there statements) but can you tell me which todays modern speaker brands can deliver the same quality in imaging/staging for an reasonable price under a 1000,- Euro/USD each.

To my ears, many of the current inexpensive 2 way DSP systems deliver superb imaging, far better than designs of the past. And when you add in room correction software, it becomes better than anything I've ever heard before. The world has passed many older designers by, and they are trying to commercially cope with it. I understand, but disagree and find it pretty amusing.
 

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... In minute 12:55 Richard stated ... that where there are peaks or dips in a frequency curve you leave them as they are. ...
Above around 300 Hz (depending on the room), he may be right.
Below that, peaks and dips are probably room modes. There's no question that EQ can improve bass modes. And digital EQ is cleaner and more flexible than analog. But I prefer to use room treatment first, then EQ to fix whatever problems remain.
 
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Above around 300 Hz (depending on the room), he may be right.
Below that, peaks and dips are probably room modes. There's no question that EQ can improve bass modes. And digital EQ is cleaner and more flexible than analog. But I prefer to use room treatment first, then EQ to fix whatever problems remain.
I use a mix of physical treatment in combination with Room correction software the Vandersteen became much better transparant.
 
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To my ears, many of the current inexpensive 2 way DSP systems deliver superb imaging, far better than designs of the past. And when you add in room correction software, it becomes better than anything I've ever heard before. The world has passed many older designers by, and they are trying to commercially cope with it. I understand, but disagree and find it pretty amusing.
Here we come in a quite subjective enviroment. I used some years ago Adam A7X monitors an beforre KRK vtx8 monitors (for mixing purpose) in combination with an Allen&Heath Xone 4D digital consol. When i an some freinds compared them with 40 year old IMF compact II monitors + NAD C370 we were in for a shock as how good/better the IMF's sounded ok they could not go as loud as the Adam or KRK but clearity an imaging was imo way better. Did sold the Adam an keep the IMF's
 
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I have watched a couple of his videos and he definitely seems to be stuck in the past....
i am agreeing with you regarding using Roomcorrection dsp's and the fast developemnt in this space. However their thougts/developmentt regarding time aligment making (proper use) of first order crossovers is still not outdated.
 
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Daverz

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I think Richard's customer base is even more stuck in the past. There are only so many innovations you can introduce before you lose them.
 
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amirm

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However their thougts/developmentt regarding time aligment making (proper use) of first order crossovers is still not outdated.
It definitely has per research showing no benefit at all to time alignment whereas first order crossovers do present problems.
 
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It definitely has per research showing no benefit at all to time alignment whereas first order crossovers do present problems.
What i understand is that Vandersteen (VDS) resolved problems surrounding first order corssovers in his designs. Regarding VDS model 1 speakers i find their imaging/staging quite remarkable in their price class.
 
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Krusty09

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I think Richard's customer base is even more stuck in the past. There are only so many innovations you can introduce before you lose you them.

Was wondering what speakers you listen to?

Thanks
 

Daverz

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Was wondering what speakers you listen to?

Thanks

Buchardt S400s since August. For the previous decade, I used Vandersteen Quatros (the original cloth version). Might seem like a big step down, but the Buchardt's just work better in my room (2nd-floor common room in a condo). I can achieve a more seamless soundstage with them, and the bass is reasonably satisfying. More bass is not very practical in a condo.

Before that I had NHT XDs, so I'm not at all averse to DSP. Before that I had a pair of Dunlavy SC-III, so I was a fan of that impulse-response based engineering approach, but empirical research shows that what is going on off-axis is more important than getting a perfect impulse response on-axis.
 
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Buchardt S400s since August. For the previous decade, I used Vandersteen Quatros (the original cloth version). Might seem like a big step down, but the Buchardt's just work better in my room (2nd-floor common room in a condo). I can achieve a more seamless soundstage with them, and the bass is reasonably satisfying. More bass is not very practical in a condo.

Before that I had NHT XDs, so I'm not at all averse to DSP. Before that I had a pair of Dunlavy SC-III, so I was a fan of that impulse-response based engineering approach, but empirical research shows that what is going on off-axis is more important than getting a perfect impulse response on-axis.
I had to move around the VDS a lot before they sounded good (the roomcorrection did the icing on the cake). I guess you did the same or had you to deal with WAF factor.
 
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Daverz

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I had to move around the VDS a lot before they sounder good (the roomcorrection did the rest). I guess you did the same or had you to deal with WAF factor.

No WAF to deal with, so they got schlepped to many different locations in the room over the years. I also did a lot of experimenting with DRC-FIR.
 

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Standing waves are not a worry if the room is big enough but in a domestic setting that's unicorn rare.

EQing, "time alignment" and delay have been features available to accomplish a desired outcome for decades. Bass is something a large space can reproduce without creating standing waves. This is not the case in smaller living spaces. Big systems: feedback frequencies, RT60 and acoustic propagation delays are concerns. Small systems, bass and first reflections. DSP remedies? Almost identical but used in different ways for different issues.

In small spaces you have to treat or consider first reflections and standing waves, how seating and speaker/sub locations alter the spacial relationships and you have just a few tools you can use in an existing space that wasn't purpose built.
DSP is the last on the list since you would want to optimize the other stuff first.

Dealing with standing waves and first reflections in a small room without physical treatment is hard and DSP won't get you there alone.
It's useful and it's a feature in my rig but I get more bang out of room treatments, speaker placement, redundant subs and careful crossover tuning.
 
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raindance

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Vandersteen speakers are not transparent. At all. Plus the model 1's fart like crazy on low bass.
 
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Vandersteen speakers are not transparent. At all. Plus the model 1's fart like crazy on low bass.
The issue with those model 1 speakers is that you have to place them carefully precise standing on nails but when you do they are as transparent as you can get for that price. Did read a lot of different opinions on them from rave opinions till quite bad. I did place them on the good spot but enhanced them also with room correction software an decoupeld them with nails on a concrete stone. For me an many others that listened to them in my specific room (using room correction) they sound amazing especialy the bass that is tight. Don't need any subs anymore. Enclosed some reviews they can't be wrong all. But ok music is in the ear of the beholder highly subjective.

http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/vandersteen/1b.html
 
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