REW to help troubleshoot discomfort?

[audiofan7464]

Hi all,

Recently purchased the Kef Q Concerto Meta and a Q6 Meta Center. I have a Denon X3800H in pre-amp mode connected to an ‘Elektra Theatron’ (an Australian brand) 7 channel amp.

I am in a dedicated home theatre room with heavy carpeting but no side wall treatments. There is however some bookshelves etc in the room, so it’s not completely empty.

I’ve gone through a bit of a journey as mentioned in the Kef Q Meta thread, but overall I’m now quite enjoying my setup. I have run Audyssey using the app and find that I enjoy listening to the ‘flat’ profile at low volumes and ‘reference’ cut of off at 502Hz at higher volumes. If I use the flat profile (or even non-range limited reference) at higher volumes the sound is too bright and fatiguing.

Without Audyssey, at lower volumes vocals are quite muffled. But at higher volumes they are fine due to the speakers opening up and/or room reflections.

So overall things are pretty good. But there is one movie in particular that is causing me issues. It is Les Miserables 2012. I have it on both blu-ray and as a 4K digital copy on Apple TV.

The issue is that when singing reaches certain frequencies it’s causing me discomfort. Both male and female vocals. I understand that the singing was recorded on location, but as I can’t see other complaints about this online I assume it is something in my setup or room.

Anyway, to get to the point, is there a mode of REW that I can use to ‘listen’ as the movie plays to help visualise what frequencies are causing the issues as they occur.

I have a UMIK-1 microphone and have run REW in the typical test-tone mode but I feel it will be easier to troubleshoot if I can see something visually as thr issue occurs.

Hope this all makes sense. Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[DVDdoug]

So overall things are pretty good. But there is one movie in particular that is causing me issues. It is Les Miserables 2012. I have it on both blu-ray and as a 4K digital copy on Apple TV.

I've never used REW but it can give you a graph. I thought that's how it's normally used.

If you find a problem with REW, great...

But if it's one (or a few) movies/recordings it would make more sense to adjust the EQ by ear for those particular recordings, if it's convenient.

When I watched Les Miserables it was on someone else's system, in stereo (and on DVD) and at less than "theater volume". I don't remember there being any sound problems, but my critique was, "too much sobbing and not enough singing." I love the Broadway soundtrack and I really enjoyed the theatrical production. I was looking forward to the move but I was disappointed. The songs are emotional enough without sobbing through them!

 

[kemmler3D]

is there a mode of REW that I can use to ‘listen’ as the movie plays to help visualise what frequencies are causing the issues as they occur.

Yep, you want to go into the RTA window and just start it running during the passage in question.

There are a lot of settings you can mess with to massage how the results show up, manual here: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/spectrum.html

But, if there's a big peak that's bothering you, it should pretty much look like a big peak on most settings. If it's easy to hear it should be similarly easy to see. You will probably be looking for a peak in the 300hz-2000hz range.

I can’t see other complaints about this online I assume it is something in my setup or room.

Likely. One thing to see while you are using REW for this is simply moving the mic around the room to see if the peak goes away. If it's a resonance / standing wave in the room, you should see the peak fluctuate every foot or three as you slowly move the mic around. Once you identify the problem frequency you can check this by using the REW tone generator at that same frequency, then move around.

If that's the case, one solution would be to move seating or speakers, or preferably to add some room treatment at relevant reflection points for the LP, maybe both.

If the peak is really stubborn and affects a lot of your seating area you can also try to EQ it out, although at higher frequencies, EQ that works in one spot tends to make things worse in another spot.

Without Audyssey, at lower volumes vocals are quite muffled. But at higher volumes they are fine due to the speakers opening up and/or room reflections.

Not sure if this has come up yet in other threads, but there is something known as the loudness effect which comes into play here.

Long story short, louder stuff sounds better in that treble and bass is perceptually boosted at higher SPL, or turning it around, treble and bass are disproportionately (perceptually) low when SPL is low. This is just due to how human hearing works, read up on fletcher-munson for more detail if you are not familiar.

The net result is what you've described experiencing here, EQ that is perfect at low volume isn't right at high volume, and vice-versa. Some gear has a "loudness" setting which is supposed to compensate for this.

So, the speakers / room reflections may not be the real story here, it certainly sounds like the loudness effect is coming into play here.

 

[audiofan7464]

I've never used REW but it can give you a graph. I thought that's how it's normally used.

Yeah, I am able to get graphs when playing test tones but wasn’t sure if it was possible to get a graph whilst real content is playing. From kemmler’s response it sounds like the RTA mode will do what I want.

If you find a problem with REW, great...

But if it's one (or a few) movies/recordings it would make more sense to adjust the EQ by ear for those particular recordings, if it's convenient.

Good point. But part of me wants to understand what is happening simply due to just how uncomfortable the sound becomes. I also imagine I will hit other content with similar issues as I watch more with my new setup.

 

[AdamG]

Might want to try Cinema EQ to On.

Go to Setup Menu, select “Audio”, then select “Surround Parameter”, then turn on “Cinema EQ.

It functions to soften the treble range of Movie and Tv soundtracks and improves vocal clarity.

Additionally you can go into the Audyssey app. Try setting the “Target Sound Option” to “High Frequency Roll Off #2”. This setting will attenuate the higher volume treble and might help.

 

[audiofan7464]

Yep, you want to go into the RTA window and just start it running during the passage in question.

Great, this looks like exactly what I was after.

But, if there's a big peak that's bothering you, it should pretty much look like a big peak on most settings. If it's easy to hear it should be similarly easy to see. You will probably be looking for a peak in the 300hz-2000hz range.

Will keep an eye on that range. Hopefully it is very obvious on the graph.

Not sure if this has come up yet in other threads, but there is something known as the loudness effect which comes into play here.

Long story short, louder stuff sounds better in that treble and bass is perceptually boosted at higher SPL, or turning it around, treble and bass are disproportionately (perceptually) low when SPL is low. This is just due to how human hearing works, read up on fletcher-munson for more detail if you are not familiar.

The net result is what you've described experiencing here, EQ that is perfect at low volume isn't right at high volume, and vice-versa. Some gear has a "loudness" setting which is supposed to compensate for this.

Yes I have read a little bit about this recently. I don’t like the Audyssey Dynamic EQ which boosts highs and lows as it boosts low frequencies far too much and highs not enough.

It was an interesting revelation when I discovered I liked Audyssey a lot at low/night time volumes but not at higher volumes. It would be interesting to calibrate at different levels but I don’t think this is something it supports.

In general life I think my hearing is sensitive to high frequency noises which may also be playing a part in the discomfort I’m having

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[audiofan7464]

Might want to try Cinema EQ to On.

Go to Setup Menu, select “Audio”, then select “Surround Parameter”, then turn on “Cinema EQ.

It functions to soften the treble range of Movie and Tv soundtracks and improves vocal clarity.

Thanks for the suggestion. I did try this. It possibly helped a little but didn’t solve the problem in my case.

 

[AdamG]

Thanks for the suggestion. I did try this. It possibly helped a little but didn’t solve the problem in my case.

I added a second step to try with the app.

 

[AdamG]

Thanks for the suggestion. I did try this. It possibly helped a little but didn’t solve the problem in my case.

Are you using Dynamic EQ? In my case this helped tame the treble. If that doesn’t work you may have to tweak the Frequency Curve down some at the higher Ranges using the app. Then you can swap different curves for music and movies.

 

[audiofan7464]

Are you using Dynamic EQ? In my case this helped tame the treble. If that doesn’t work you may have to tweak the Frequency Curve down some at the higher Ranges using the app. Then you can swap different curves for music and movies.

Not using Dynamic EQ as I don’t like what it does to the lower frequencies in my setup when listening at lower volumes. Audyssey flat has worked out better for me at lower volumes, thread topic aside.

I also didn’t like the effect of Audssey at higher volumes as the sound was too bright/fatiguing. So I am just using it to manage bass. But I hadn’t tried the second HF roll off curve. I can definitely give it a try.


To make it clearer, this is what I’m doing. On the Denon I have registered Audyssey Flat to Quick Select 1. I have registered Audyssey Reference cut off at 502Hz to Quick Select 2. I then toggle between the two. Quick select 1 at lower volumes/night and then Quick select 2 at higher volumes. Dynamic EQ and Volume disabled for both.

502Hz might seem a bit random, but I saw people recommend cutting off at 500Hz. 502Hz is the closest I could get with the app slider.

Interestingly, I’ve just noticed the Q6 crosses over to the bass driver at 560Hz. Not sure if this being so close to the Audyssey cut off would cause problems. I will try listening with Audyssey off completely and see if it helps.

 

[kemmler3D]

Will keep an eye on that range. Hopefully it is very obvious on the graph.

Look for something that's 3dB+ above the surrounding audio in that range that appears to pop up when the objectionable notes come through. My guess is it will be 6dB or more higher than stuff that isn't bothering you, but you may have sensitive ears. If it's not obvious at first, run through the passage a few times, watch the graph, and maybe change some of the settings to change the timing on the graph, but it should reveal itself to you in a few minutes at most. If not, move the mic a little and try again. Good luck!

 

[Keith_W]

Oh boy, I don't know where to start.

The first thing I would do is confirm that it isn't the recording. Does the same problem happen when you listen to other recordings? Have you tried listening with headphones? If the problem is isolated to this recording, and you hear the same problem with headphones, then it's the recording. As suggested by others, you can look a bit closer at the recording by opening it up in Audacity.

If it's not the recording, then there is a problem somewhere in your system. It could be anything from inappropriate DSP, to amplifier clipping, to speaker break-up, to something resonating in your room. I would start by running a sweep from REW through the system with the microphone properly positioned on a mic tripod (NOT the useless mini-tripod that comes with the UMIK-1). Do this at 75dB, then 85dB, then 95dB (make sure you wear hearing protection). You need to sweep every speaker in your system individually, then look at the curves.

BTW, Elektra is a Melbourne-based manufacturer. I know the guy who designs and builds those amps - he lives quite close to me and he's been over a couple of times. Are you in Melbourne, by any chance?

 

[audiofan7464]

Hi Keith, some really good suggestions. Thanks for giving me some more things to try.

Oh boy, I don't know where to start.

The first thing I would do is confirm that it isn't the recording. Does the same problem happen when you listen to other recordings? Have you tried listening with headphones? If the problem is isolated to this recording, and you hear the same problem with headphones, then it's the recording. As suggested by others, you can look a bit closer at the recording by opening it up in Audacity.

I did think it might be the recording, but the lack of other people mentioning it for the title led me to rule it out. Also didn’t see it mentioned in some reviews I checked of the blu-ray. But I will definitely check it out with headphones.

If it's not the recording, then there is a problem somewhere in your system. It could be anything from inappropriate DSP, to amplifier clipping, to speaker break-up, to something resonating in your room. I would start by running a sweep from REW through the system with the microphone properly positioned on a mic tripod (NOT the useless mini-tripod that comes with the UMIK-1). Do this at 75dB, then 85dB, then 95dB (make sure you wear hearing protection). You need to sweep every speaker in your system individually, then look at the curves.

Will do. I like the idea of running different sweeps at different volumes because as mentioned I can hear differences in the sound from my speaker depending on the volume.

Also, I’d actually forgotten the little stand that the mic come with. I have a proper floor-standing microphone stand that I use.

Thanks!

 

[AdamG]

502Hz might seem a bit random, but I saw people recommend cutting off at 500Hz. 502Hz is the closest I could get with the app slider.

Hi,

You did mention this at the beginning, and I didn’t register what exactly that had to do with the sound being overly bright. Well, you are essentially handicapping Audyssey and telling it to not EQ above 500Hz. That means several things. If no eq filtered are created and applied to the frequencies above 500Hz then you are getting raw speaker and room effects. You might try running Audyssey full spectrum once and let it do filters for the full bandwidth of your room.

Some of my previous suggestions won’t work because you didn’t EQ above 500Hz. So there are no filters in place, in the higher range to manipulate/adjust.

But we are guessing and poking around in the dark. Can you post some pictures of your before and after Audyssey Measurements please? Or better yet. You say you have a Mic and REW. Run a sweep from your Primary seating position and post up the graph. You will get much more focused advice. And we will be able to see and better diagnose what’s going on in your particular room and speaker arrangement.

 

[audiofan7464]

Hi,

You did mention this at the beginning, and I didn’t register what exactly that had to do with the sound being overly bright. Well, you are essentially handicapping Audyssey and telling it to not EQ above 500Hz. That means several things. If no eq filtered are created and applied to the frequencies above 500Hz then you are getting raw speaker and room effects. You might try running Audyssey full spectrum once and let it do filters for the full bandwidth of your room.

Thanks, makes more sense now. I was a bit confused by some of your suggestions given I had Audyssey limited to 502Hz. But the reason I had done that is because without the frequency limit, I found the full-curve Audyssey correction was very 'bright' and fatiguing in my room.

Some of my previous suggestions won’t work because you didn’t EQ above 500Hz. So there are no filters in place, in the higher range to manipulate/adjust.

But we are guessing and poking around in the dark. Can you post some pictures of your before and after Audyssey Measurements please? Or better yet. You say you have a Mic and REW. Run a sweep from your Primary seating position and post up the graph. You will get much more focused advice. And we will be able to see and better diagnose what’s going on in your particular room and speaker arrangement.

I have now done some measurements with REW. Audyssey was enabled, but only for 502Hz and below. The microphone was pretty close to my MLP and I pointed it directly at the center speaker. I've only taken measurements of the speaker channel so far as it is the vocals that are causing me issues. I also didn't want to do all the other speakers in case there is an issue with the way I took the measurements.

I'm not sure which graphs are most relevant in terms of trying to identify issues, so please let me know. Also, if it helps I can share the REW file. I measured at 75, 85 and 95 dB. Subwoofers were turned off, but are crossed over at 80Hz.

Following are graphs with the 75/85/95dB measurements on one graph and then separate images for the 75dB, 85dB and 95dB distortion. Also included 95dB waterfall.

I don't really know what I'm looking for and what 'distortion' precisely means in this context, but the distortion graph seem to peak around the main vocal frequencies.

Also, I tried using the RTA feature and couldn't see any clear explanation, although SPL did seem to jump when I experienced the discomfort. Also, with headphones watching the movie on my laptop, I could maybe hear some slight 'clipping' but the issue didn't seem to occur.

Really appreciate any help that can be provided. From the distortion graphs I'm guessing I have some kind of issue with the room and/or speaker? As a reminder it's the Kef Q6 Meta Center.


edit:
One of thing I will mention is that my center speaker is currently sitting on top of an IKEA Besta frame as it is a good size to sit under my projector screen. However, this frame is empty and there is no back panel on it. I've attached a photo of the general product.

edit 2:
I will do some more measurements tomorrow with Audyssey completely disabled. Even to my layman eyes, I can see a lot of weirdness in the sub 502Hz frequencies that Audyssey is enabled for.

 

[Keith_W]

Please upload your .MDAT to ASR. Make sure you clearly indicate which measurement is which. It needs to be zipped first.

Also, I did say that ALL the speakers need to be swept. Just because your front speakers look OK, does not mean that one of your side speakers is not producing the annoying peak. Could you also provide a better description of the audible fault? Do you think it's in the upper part of the vocal register or the lower? Do you hear sibilance?

 

[audiofan7464]

Please upload your .MDAT to ASR. Make sure you clearly indicate which measurement is which. It needs to be zipped first.

Also, I did say that ALL the speakers need to be swept. Just because your front speakers look OK, does not mean that one of your side speakers is not producing the annoying peak. Could you also provide a better description of the audible fault? Do you think it's in the upper part of the vocal register or the lower? Do you hear sibilance?

I’ll take more measurements of the the Left, Center and Right both with and without Audyssey and upload them as you have advised.

However I just wanted to say that after seeing all the distortions sub 500Hz in the above graphs, I decided to try disabling Audssey completely for the center channel. I have just watched some of the more problematic scenes and there is a *vast* improvement.

I really have minimal need to use Audyssey on the center channel to be honest as it is a closed box speaker not near the wall. So far it seems that Audyssey is doing more harm than good on this channel. I had seen a lot of improvement moving from full range Audyssey to sub 502Hz. I’m now again seeing further improvements turning it off altogether for the center.

Also the ‘uncomfortable’ sound (jumps in SPL?) would happen as singing reached higher notes.

In the meantime though, are the sub ~500Hz distortions in the above graphs unusual?

 

[Keith_W]

However I just wanted to say that after seeing all the distortions sub 500Hz in the above graphs, I decided to try disabling Audssey completely for the center channel. I have just watched some of the more problematic scenes and there is a *vast* improvement.

In that case it is highly likely that Audyssey has done something inappropriate. I don't like those "black box" DSP solutions where you put a measurement in and the correction comes out. You don't know what the DSP box has done. The other pitfall are those ridiculous microphones that come with AVR's - no calibration, no mic stand (or if a mic stand is included, it's a mini tripod), just rubbish. No hope of taking a proper measurement. If you take a measurement heavily contaminated by reflections and try to "correct" it, you get all sorts of inappropriate corrections. This is what gives DSP a bad name!

Now that you have diagnosed the problem, there is no point sweeping all the other speakers unless you are curious. I would suggest you redo the Audyssey DSP process, or try something else like @OCA Evo Nexus (or Neuron, or whatever the current version is called). There is a thread on ASR.

I don't own a receiver, let alone one with Audyssey - so I can't help you there.

In the meantime though, are the sub ~500Hz distortions in the above graphs unusual?

Not unusual at all. That is what you would expect when you measure speakers loudly. Make speakers play louder = more distortion.