• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

REW newbie- Some basic questions and guidance.

subfire91

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2024
Messages
19
Likes
2
Good evenings ladies and gentlemen,

My subs arrived on Thursday so its time to calibrate my HiFi system using REW and UMIK-1.

To my mind i will perform three things:

  • level match speakers
  • gain match subs
  • and find the correct xover
i have one basic question for starters to initiate my journey with REW. For speaker level match i have seen a lot of videos where they use -30 dbfs value to perform this. Is this value recommended or any other value should be ok, for example the default -12 ?

Thank you
 
Good evenings ladies and gentlemen,

My subs arrived on Thursday so its time to calibrate my HiFi system using REW and UMIK-1.

To my mind i will perform three things:

  • level match speakers
  • gain match subs
  • and find the correct xover
i have one basic question for starters to initiate my journey with REW. For speaker level match i have seen a lot of videos where they use -30 dbfs value to perform this. Is this value recommended or any other value should be ok, for example the default -12 ?

Thank you
The simplest way to match volume is to perform one sweep measurement of your L+R and another sweep measurement of your sub (all in the main listening position and the default -12dB is fine)

Then you just display them in overlay and you will easily see how much you need to compensate one or the other
Choosing 1/3 or even 1/2 or 1/1 smoothing helps here

This is my home office system when I did the volume matching (aimed for 80Hz where the crossover is)

1732469247960.png


You can also use REW's Align SPL feature

1732469359279.png


I usually just do it manually using the CTRL+SHIFT+Right click and drag technique:


1732469405880.png
 

Attachments

  • 1732469099415.png
    1732469099415.png
    107.3 KB · Views: 25
Thank you for your reply @ppataki.

Is there any guide on which i can follow aiming on how to find the correct crossover between the subs and the speakers?

FYI i have dual subs REL 1205 MKII connected to the preouts of the receiver, not to the subouts, aiming at a sub for each channel.

My tools are REW, UMIK-1 and the crossover knob at the back of the subs.
 
Thank you for your reply @ppataki.

Is there any guide on which i can follow aiming on how to find the correct crossover between the subs and the speakers?

FYI i have dual subs REL 1205 MKII connected to the preouts of the receiver, not to the subouts, aiming at a sub for each channel.

My tools are REW, UMIK-1 and the crossover knob at the back of the subs.

You are welcome!

Well.....setting up two subs is pretty challenging......

I know this is not necessarily the answer you were looking for but just start at 80Hz
That is the THX standard and there is a reason for that (that is the frequency above which we tend to be able to localize bass sources)
So set it to 80Hz and perform a sweep measurement with REW in the main listening position
Then set it to 75Hz, perform a measurement, then 70Hz, perform a measurement then compare the three measurements in REW
Look for not only the frequency curve but also the temporal curves like phase, Group Delay and Wavelet

I am happy to take a look at those measurements if you can post them here later on

If you have polarity switch on the subs it would be great to perform measurements in all combinations

Also use REW's Room Sim tool to simulate your room - that is the best place to start, even before any measurements
 
You are welcome!

Well.....setting up two subs is pretty challenging......

I know this is not necessarily the answer you were looking for but just start at 80Hz
That is the THX standard and there is a reason for that (that is the frequency above which we tend to be able to localize bass sources)
So set it to 80Hz and perform a sweep measurement with REW in the main listening position
Then set it to 75Hz, perform a measurement, then 70Hz, perform a measurement then compare the three measurements in REW
Look for not only the frequency curve but also the temporal curves like phase, Group Delay and Wavelet

I am happy to take a look at those measurements if you can post them here later on

If you have polarity switch on the subs it would be great to perform measurements in all combinations

Also use REW's Room Sim tool to simulate your room - that is the best place to start, even before any measurements
Can you help me a bit with REW settings for the sweep? should be 75db volume i presume and dbfs value not so relevant
 
Good evenings @ppataki
wohooo my first measurement!

So some info about the system Speakers are level matched to 75db. Where my speakers run at 75 subs run at 86db. i run them hot as i like a bit more bass in my music. in order to achieve 86db sub1 gain knob is at 50% and sub2 at about 35 to achieve the same volume. i believe is due to placement i may be wrong though.


image2.png


Green line is with subs on and red off. crossover set at 80Hz.
Did not understand the part with the phase curve there was a check box to display it im posting the measurement with the subs on and checked the phase curve. |USe 1/6 smoothing on both let me know if anything else must be used.

image1.png
 
Good evenings @ppataki
wohooo my first measurement!

So some info about the system Speakers are level matched to 75db. Where my speakers run at 75 subs run at 86db. i run them hot as i like a bit more bass in my music. in order to achieve 86db sub1 gain knob is at 50% and sub2 at about 35 to achieve the same volume. i believe is due to placement i may be wrong though.


View attachment 411102

Green line is with subs on and red off. crossover set at 80Hz.
Did not understand the part with the phase curve there was a check box to display it im posting the measurement with the subs on and checked the phase curve. |USe 1/6 smoothing on both let me know if anything else must be used.

View attachment 411103

Wow! These measurements look pretty good already! Are these without any DSP?
If yes, then probably you won't need much optimisation anyway - a lot of people (including me) won't have such a nice response even with full DSP...

Can you please post your mdat file zipped so I can take a look at it and also show you how to set up these and other graphs?
 
Wow! These measurements look pretty good already! Are these without any DSP?
If yes, then probably you won't need much optimisation anyway - a lot of people (including me) won't have such a nice response even with full DSP...

Can you please post your mdat file zipped so I can take a look at it and also show you how to set up these and other graphs?
Of course im attaching.

Yeap without DSP. The receiver is a DRA 900H no Audyssey etc.

i was a bit surprised how the speakers could handle low frequencies without the subs. The speakers are these:

 

Attachments

  • fyi.zip
    1.1 MB · Views: 15
Thanks for sharing the file

So when it comes to displaying graphs in REW, here is what I generally do (of course other folks here might do it differently)

Frequency response:
- set smoothing to 1/12 when you want to scrutinize the bass and the mids/highs too
- set smoothing to 1/3 or even 1/2 or 1/1 when doing volume matching
- set smoothing to Psy if you want to have an idea how the system will sound to your ears

Phase:
- smoothing to 1/12 and always unwrap

Looking at your phase graph I would say there is some room to improve there:

1733212925306.png


Ideally the phase curve shall be flat from 20kHz down to as low as possible (my systems are usually flat down to about 600Hz)

Not sure if you have access to Dirac Live, that shall be able to fix your phase curve down to about 300Hz or so - or you can try to do that manually with rePhase but that has a pretty steep learning curve

Your distortion curve looks very good:
(this is set to %)
1733213156626.png


The Impulse response curve shows that you have some reflections in your room

1733213270771.png


The way to deal with those is to apply some physical room treatment (absorbers put in the first reflection points)

The step response curve shows how much ringing you have in the bass:
1733213366394.png


Unfortunately you have plenty - this curve shall not oscillate that much


The Group Delay curve essentially shows the same about your bass:

1733213417021.png


Starting from below 500Hz (where the room takes over) you have 50-100ms of group delay (meaning that your bass notes are 'lagging behind' the rest of the spectrum)
Group delay of this magnitude is definitely audible

The RT60 (Topt) curve shows the amount of reverberation in your room
In the mids/highs it shall be in the 300-400ms zone
You can battle this with physical room treatment too

1733213685288.png


The Waterfall curve will also confirm that:

1733213847019.png


And finally the Wavelet curve (Spectrogram) with the settings that you see below

1733213907645.png


This curve will show you again how your bass lags behind the rest (the Peak Energy Time dashed line)
If you have ported subs then this value is considered OK but you can also see on the graph the same ringing that we saw in the Step response curve

So what can you do to 'speed up' your bass and reduce ringing?

That's where the integration of your two subs will come into the picture and that's where things start to become nasty

Not sure what DSP you can use but essentially you will need to adjust the delay values of your subs to optimize the temporal response
You can do that based on further REW measurements that you perform with Acoustic timing reference
1733214205235.png


Where you take for example the front left channel as the reference and measure the delay compared to all other channels (including your two subs)
Then you can use that value to calculate the delay for each speaker

You can also use REW's Alignment tool to make fine tuning but for me generally speaking the delay measurement usually works fine

Or you can simply use Dirac Live Bass Control to do all that for you but based on reviews/measurements that you can read here on ASR it actually does not do a decent job in the group delay department.....

This is a lot to digest I guess :) so take your time
 
Thank you @ppataki. Thats some detailed response :)

Basically i have no option to modify the values you mentioned i dont have access to Dirac on any DSP so my option i guess is a miniDSP to do the adjustments you recommended. i got to only experiment with the placement which is again difficult due to the layout of the living room

if the crossover setting is correct? im ok for now but that delay you mentioned got me worrying so i may go into more details into correcting them into the immediate future.

I got my subs setup as REL recommends basically as stereo one for the left and one for the right channel. i connected them to the pre-out left for the one right for the other using this wire: https://oehlbach.com/en/subwoofer-y-rca-cable/nf-y-sub-d1c20561

i dont know if migrating to the subouts of the receiver will help (got 2 of them)
 
Thank you @ppataki. Thats some detailed response :)

You are welcome! :)

if the crossover setting is correct? im ok for now but that delay you mentioned got me worrying so i may go into more details into correcting them into the immediate future.

I assume it is at 80Hz? If yes then it looks correct to me

I got my subs setup as REL recommends basically as stereo one for the left and one for the right channel. i connected them to the pre-out left for the one right for the other using this wire: https://oehlbach.com/en/subwoofer-y-rca-cable/nf-y-sub-d1c20561

If you want to start playing around with the delay settings you will need to switch to mono bass, i.e. you will need your subs (each sub) to receive a summed signal of L+R. So not like how you are doing it now (L and R separately)
And make sure that you can control the delay value for each sub separately
Once these pre-conditions are there, you can start fiddling around with the delay values based on the acoustic timing reference measurements I described above
btw. if you have a rectangular room you can simulate all this in REW's Room Sim tool

1733229707342.png
 
I would also like to add my thanks @ppataki !!! This is an awesome mini-tutorial !

I am looking at adding a MiniDSP Flex over the new year so I can add some room correction but understanding what's going on is my first hurdle.

This explanation using real data and what the graphics are showing is awesome. I am working through some REW data and adjusting my graphs so the setting seem to match what you have show.

Thanks,

Gary
 
@ppataki is it better to level-match or gain match the subwoofers ?

They are placed left and right to the tv next to the speakers
 
What do you mean?
Just adjust the volume to be the same at the listening position
i though is more wise to ask. i see alot of people debating whether to gain match (setting spl meter in front of each sub) or level match (matching at the listening position.

some menton that level matching may cause 1 sub reaching limit before the other
 
some menton that level matching may cause 1 sub reaching limit before the other
If one of the subs is further away from the MLP (main listening position) than the other then yes, that will reach its limit earlier
However, acoustically speaking your goal is to have the same SPL from both at the MLP

Besides, is reaching the limit a real concern in your case? Do you usually crank them up so loud that they are approaching their xmax and/or amp limit?
If the answer is yes, then probably you would need to upgrade your subs to make sure that you stay within their limits
 
Back
Top Bottom