• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

REW and distortion measurement of Low Pass Filters

Joined
May 9, 2023
Messages
42
Likes
5
Hello everyone! I have a question about the EQ settings in REW, specifically LP filters and how they affect the distortion measurement: When I apply a low pass filter in the EQ settings and "measure with these filters" the distortion somewhat follows the slope of the FR (inversely). I assume this is normal behavior due to the way distortion is calculated in REW.
My question is "WHY"? Also, is there a 'method' of determining a drivers' optimal LP crossover point by evaluating the distortion graph? (ex. increase LP Hz until you see 'this').
Thanks, B
1754482055850.png
1754482022508.png
 
My question is "WHY"?
THD [%] plots distortion relative to the fundamental.

As the fundamental drops in amplitude and approaches the noise floor, relative distortion naturally shoots up.

Set the distortion window to plot absolute THD (in dB), and this will not longer happen.

Also, is there a 'method' of determining a drivers' optimal LP crossover point by evaluating the distortion graph?
Many methods, yes.

Is this a subwoofer crossover, or for a multi-way main speaker (e.g. between woofer and mid woofer/tweeter)?
 
THD [%] plots distortion relative to the fundamental.

As the fundamental drops in amplitude and approaches the noise floor, relative distortion naturally shoots up.

Set the distortion window to plot absolute THD (in dB), and this will not longer happen.
This is what I thought, I just didn't know the 'science' behind it. Thank you. Currently I only understand distortion levels as %THD, is there a reference document to learn about THD [dB]?
Is this a subwoofer crossover, or for a multi-way main speaker (e.g. between woofer and mid woofer/tweeter)?
Currently I am studying midrange/midbass speakers from the 'well known SPL brands' (DS18, Sundown, Skar, etc). The goal is to provide objective performance data that will include overall response (open X/O +/- 3dB performance and linearity), distortion values at multiple power levels and recommended crossover settings.

Since this is SPL (and relatively inexpensive speakers) I am setting my acceptable distortion [%] level to 10%. I would like to use the EQ settings in REW to simulate/test the crossover points to achieve the 10% THD levels.
 
Currently I only understand distortion levels as %THD, is there a reference document to learn about THD [dB]?
I'm not aware of one specifically for that.

Analog devices has one on basics, but they're mostly on relative values:

But it's not all that complicated really.

First while THD[%] is always relative to the fundamental, THD[dB] can be either relative or absolute.

You can easily convert relative[%] to relative[dB] and vice versa: https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm

Here are some examples for each format:

Relative[%]:
Mag S6 Home Theater Surround speaker THD Distortion vs SPL Response.png

Relative[dB]:
Fosi SP601 Harmonic Distortion (86dB @ 1m).png
=difference between signal amplitude and distortion amplitude

Absolute[dB]:
Mag S6 Home Theater Surround speaker THD Distortion measurement.png
=distortion amplitude alone


Notice how in relative graphs, a drop in signal amplitude always coincides with a rise in distortion.

Since human perception doesn't really work that way, there are techniques like Characteristics Harmonic Distortion (CHD), which plot relative distortion not referenced to the fundamental, but to an average above the bass roll-off, which removes that effect: https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kl.../AN_36_Characteristic_Harmonic_Distortion.pdf

Or you can just plot absolute distortion.
 
The manual explains about THD, but focuses mainly on %.

But it's not all that complicated really.
Thank you for overestimating my abilities lol. I am trying to digest the information you provided, but am having a hard time.

An example, although possibly a very poor one; "Any speaker can be a great speaker with the right crossovers." Simply put, even a terrible speaker can play 1 note well. I am trying to show this in REW. The following distortion graph shows ~2%THD between 1k and 3k. I would like to show that this speaker, when crossed over to only play this range, will show this low distortion.
1754488145836.png

When crossing over the speaker I get this result
1754488467228.png

1754488503627.png

Is it possible to interpret these graphs to explain my statement? Or am I on the wrong track?
Thanks.
 
Not as they are now as the graphs lack proper labels. I have no idea what I'm looking at.
Sorry for that. If this is not enough information please let me know what I need to provide.

THD% No crossover
1754488145836.png


When crossing over the speaker I get this result
THD%: Blue, no crossover. Pink 1200HP, 2500LP
1754488467228.png

Distortion dBu: Blue, no crossover. Pink 1200HP, 2500LP
1754488503627.png
 
Sorry for that. If this is not enough information please let me know what I need to provide.

THD% No crossover
1754488145836.png


When crossing over the speaker I get this result
THD%: Blue, no crossover. Pink 1200HP, 2500LP
1754488467228.png

Distortion dBu: Blue, no crossover. Pink 1200HP, 2500LP
1754488503627.png
Please use absolute THD plotting.

I can't interpret changes in THD when I have no idea what the fundamental looks like or what happened to it after filtering.
 
1754492361727.png


My guess is that these are measurements of a single driver. Red = nearfield measurement. All the others are from further away with different XO curves applied.

The first thing to note is the SPL. Not only is it very high, but the SPL is different for each curve. Nearfield measurements are always apparently very loud because of mic distance. So we will ignore the red (nearfield) curve and assume that the other curves, which are: full range (green), with 1200-2500 XO (blue), and with 2000-2500 XO (yellow), were taken at the same microphone distance.

Re: high SPL. I am guessing that you did not calibrate your microphone, since measuring this loud would send distortion through the roof. Remember that playing loudspeakers too loud results in more distortion for many reasons. It is very important to choose the correct volume for distortion measurements. For the purpose of DSP/room correction, my normal suggestion is to measure at normal listening volume. But if you want to formally document distortion, the standard is to measure with your mic 1m away from the speaker, on-axis, and speaker vol adjusted to produce 76dB at that distance.

Re: different volume for each measurement. Note that there is a 10dB difference between the yellow curve (2000-2500XO) and the green curve (full range, no XO). I am guessing that this is due to application of the bandpass XO and you did not change the output volume of your speakers in between measurements. As mentioned, 10dB less volume = less distortion.

For now, we will assume that you have taken a valid measurement and your distortion measurement is interpretable, and the high SPL is simply due to skipping REW's mic SPL calibration step. If you have measured at an ear splitting volume, then these measurements need to be trashed and you need to take a new set.

1754493136651.png


This is distortion of the driver full range with no XO, in dBFS. Brown is the fundamental, black is THD. I have not shown the noise floor, but it is sufficiently low for this measurement to be interpretable. If you look at the 900Hz peak, it is -15dB down from the fundamental.

1754493300820.png


And this is distortion with the 1200-2500Hz bandpass applied. The same peak at 900Hz is now -30dB to the fundamental.

1754493577603.png


Since you asked about using distortion to guide the optimal XO frequency, I have taken your full range driver measurement and switched the view from dBFS to %. As you can see, the fundamental (brown) has been normalized to a flat line, and distortion (in black) appears as a % of the fundamental.

How much tolerance we have for distortion is frequency dependent. In general we want <1% THD for higher frequencies, but we tolerate up to 10% for subwoofer frequencies up to 80Hz. It looks to me that this driver can be high passed at about 200-300Hz if we accept a tolerance of 2% at 200Hz.

Something pretty nasty is happening at 900Hz. I am not sure what it is, perhaps it's the Fs (resonant freq of the driver), perhaps it's a cabinet resonance, perhaps it's a cabinet mode. It may even be something you placed on top of your speaker with a resonant freq of 900Hz. I would look up the T-S params of this driver and see what the Fs is. If the Fs isn't at 900Hz, it's going to be something else. 900Hz has a wavelength of 380mm, maybe this corresponds with one of your internal speaker dimensions?

1754494551818.png


And one last thing, the polarity of this driver is inverted. I don't know if it's accidental or deliberate. Sometimes drivers have deliberate polarity inversion to ensure proper XO summation, this practice is very common with passive XO's. I suggest you check your cabling to make sure this isn't accidental.
 
@Keith_W Thank you for the extremely detailed explanation!!!!! To answer your questions:

Yes it is a single driver. The driver is a Skar FSX8, the king/prince of cheap SPL drivers!

Sorry I did not include the impedance plot:
1754495692399.png

Fs is 104Hz and there is a painful resonance at the 900Hz point which would help explain the distortion measurement. It may be something in my test enclosure, but this is the only speaker that shows this 900Hz resonance so I think it is just the speaker.

Re: SPL. Yes, I am testing speakers at higher SPL levels since this is what my audience would be interested in; how does a speaker perform at high volumes? (subwoofer guys love high watts!!!!!) I'm sure this is not ideal for SQ testing, but I would like to test the speakers up to the RMS rating, with some going up to 300 watts RMS. If there is any way to improve my measurements for this case please let me know. I understand that this is crazy to do, but I am hoping to provide insight on what a 300 watt RMS speaker is designed for (crossover settings, distortion at that volume, etc) and that there is no reason to have a speaker like that in car audio.

The microphone is a UMM-6 and I am using the calibration file. I have not done the REW microphone calibration step, is this necessary with the provided calibration file? I have the mic gain (windows) set to 70/100 to avoid any mic clipping.
I have also not calibrated my soundcard/amplifier. I am hoping that by keeping all of my equipment the same through my testing I can safely negate any output equipment effects.

All measurements were taken using the same voltage at the same distance (10v 1 meter 111dB only 25watts of the 175watt RMS rating).

Re: polarity. Since this is only a single speaker I was not concerned with polarity when I installed it. Going forward I will ensure correct polarity as I was unaware it would have any affect.

Re: distortion measurements. I now understand the dBfs graph and how to analyze it. What does the dB difference say about the distortion? What is considered acceptable? Is the dB difference relative to distortion % as I found in an article from benchmark media:
When distortion reaches 1% it is just 40 dB lower than the music. When distortion reaches 0.1% it is 60 dB lower than the music. When distortion reaches 0.01% it is 80 dB lower than the music. Obviously the 40 dB, 60 dB and 80 dB figures are easier to understand than 1%, 0.1% and 0.01%.
1754497223203.png

Using this logic this difference of 36dB would be ~1% distortion? If this is correct, why is the % plot so much different?
1754497425407.png
 
Is this what I was missing the whole time??? With this unchecked the % graph now shows what I expected to see.... or am I still off base?
1754497886136.png
 
Also, regarding testing at 300watts... I have customers that say they want this speaker because it is 300watts vs another that is only 150watts RMS. I want to be able to use data to explain why the 150watt speaker will be better in most applications (only for example).
 
I am really surprised that the Skar FSX8 website does not have a data sheet. It looks as if you determined the Fs by looking at the impedance curve. I mean, where are the T-S parameters? I can't believe that a driver manufacturer won't publish T-S params, they must be somewhere and I can't find it!

If your intended application is to pump that driver to be as loud as possible without consideration of SQ, then I would not bother with distortion measurements. I know with car audio there is something called "dB Drag Racing" where they try to make the SPL as loud as possible. I have no idea if that's what you are doing. I hope not! But if you plan to use your speaker at >110dB, then yeah you should measure at >110dB and design your XO accordingly.

I am unfamiliar with the UMM-6 or whether it has a built-in SPL meter. Some USB mics do have it, e.g. UMIK-2. If your mic reports the SPL, then you don't need to calibrate REW's SPL because the mic should report the SPL automatically.

Re: polarity. It won't have an effect on your distortion measurements, but it will be important when you design your XO and integrate drivers together. You don't want one driver to have the wrong polarity, unless it is deliberate. For e.g. it is normal to invert the polarity of one of the drivers if you are using a 4th order Butterworth filter to avoid cancellation at the XO point.

Is this what I was missing the whole time??? With this unchecked the % graph now shows what I expected to see.... or am I still off base?
View attachment 468140

As for that setting, I just consulted the REW Manual and learnt something new. It looks as if my understanding of distortion needs an update. I'll need to digest what John said, but for now I have to admit that I have reached the limits of what I know. I hope @staticV3 can help.
 
I mean, where are the T-S parameters? I can't believe that a driver manufacturer won't publish T-S params
This is another reason for the testing/review videos. Not that these manufacturers are being deceptive, but some just won't tell the truth. I have people blaming speaker pods for killing midbass, when in fact the speaker they installed is incapable of producing any type of midbass even though the 'spec sheet' states that the speaker will play "down to 30Hz"
It looks as if you determined the Fs by looking at the impedance curve.
I measured the impedance curve using a DATS. This is another wonderful tool for calling out potential manufacturer trickery.

As far as the SQ at >110dB, customers always say they want "Loud and Clean" without really knowing what that is. So, I aim to prove what loud and clean really is. I focus on door speakers and pillar setups. dB Drag is more for subs and stuff. My products are to support loud midrange setups to keep up with big sub stages.
 
Just had a look at the MDAT and I think ther's a misunderstading.

"Any speaker can be a great speaker with the right crossovers." Simply put, even a terrible speaker can play 1 note well. I am trying to show this in REW. The following distortion graph shows ~2%THD between 1k and 3k. I would like to show that this speaker, when crossed over to only play this range, will show this low distortion.
1754488145836.png

When crossing over the speaker I get this result
1754488467228.png

1754488503627.png

Is it possible to interpret these graphs to explain my statement? Or am I on the wrong track?
Like, if you wanted to show distortion parity between a specific frequency range of a full-range sweep and the same speaker band-passed to just that range, then your measurements are insufficient as none of them have the same SPL at any range:
SPL graph.png

Except for the two filtered ones above 5k, and these indeed show identical THD above 5k:
THD graph.png

But that area is quite low in amplitude so there's hardly any measurement precision.

But from the get-go, this test appears rather pointless to me, if I understand your intentions correctly.

Same frequency at the same SPL will always result in the same THD. It doesn't matter if or how the speaker is filtered above or below said frequency.

A simple video as proof (WARNING: unpleasant 2k sine)

And yes, REW and EQApo are correctly configured.

Playing frequencies other than 2k, the Bandpass in EQApo filters them out.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom