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Review Questions for Flagship Processors: Trinnov, Storm, JBL, Lyngdorf, Datasat

Dimifoot

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That is a lower performance analyzer than mine.
Its definitely higher performance when measuring more than 2 channels, where yours has no performance at all :p
 
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Spocko

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I feel the same...

Just before starting my multichannel multi-amplifier project, I have seriously considered and web-reviewed Trinnov Altitude 32, and my understanding at that time was Trinnov would be an entry-level ATX PC (with a few cooling fans in it!) running Unix OS and digital software crossover (up to 192 kHz 24 bit) and multichannel DAC+preamp in one EMF noisy box.

At least for what I would like to achieve (stereo music audio, 5-way 10-channel crossover and multi-amplifier), I have concluded that I can achieve the same functionality of Trinnov with my completely silent (fan-less, spindle-less) Windows 10 PC and digital software crossover EKIO sending the crossovered channels into Okto DAC8PRO, and actually I could successfully completed such multichannel system as shared here.

And the sound quality of my system would be mainly depending on DAC8PRO (already so nicely measured and reviewed by amirm) and also on the amplifiers I am using, as well as on the speaker drivers...

Now, I feel again that Trinnov would be an entry level small computer with multichannel DAC+preamp together in a small EMF+fan noisy box.

Even though many people here are very much interested in the AVR functions and capabilities of Trinnov including the Atmos control in movie listening which greatly depending on the SPs and the room environment, I myself is rather interested in the fundamental SQ (sound quality) evaluations and the reliabilities of its software crossover including the daly and phase features.

I believe amirm can check the delay (and phase) control of Trinnov in digital level and line-out level just just like I did for software crossover EKIO as shared here.

I also would like to know the basic crossover reliability and reproducibility, i.e. simple Fq response curves, of Trinnov in digital level and in analog XLR output level just like I did and shared here.

I do hope if I could have chance to evaluate and compare Trinnov in my setup as the replacement of my PC+DAC8PRO, but the possibility of such occasion would be very small.

I really looking forward to amirm's review and report on Trinnov, therefore, which may give me some indirect comparison in Stereo Sound Quality between my multichannel multi-amplifier system and the same system possibly using Trinnov as replacement for PC+DAC8PRO.
It may comfort you to know (or not!) that most studios use equipment with more noise than the system you have designed for yourself. Ironic that we as consumers spend so much money on improved electronics to deliver the purest signal path between source and speaker playback when the actual music content was recorded/mixed/mastered in a workflow nowhere near as noise free.
 

Scott Borduin

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At least for what I would like to achieve (stereo music audio, 5-way 10-channel crossover and multi-amplifier), I have concluded that I can achieve the same functionality of Trinnov with my completely silent (fan-less, spindle-less) Windows 10 PC and digital software crossover EKIO sending the crossovered channels into Okto DAC8PRO, and actually I could successfully completed such multichannel system as shared here.

And the sound quality of my system would be mainly depending on DAC8PRO (already so nicely measured and reviewed by amirm) and also on the amplifiers I am using, as well as on the speaker drivers...

Now, I feel again that Trinnov would be an entry level small computer with multichannel DAC+preamp together in a small EMF+fan noisy box.

However well the Trinnov does or does not measure as a DAC, there is no question that the IP you pay for is primarily in the software, not the hardware. It is an amazingly versatile signal processing device, so much so that you really need professional consulting to really understand how to get the most out of the unit. I'm a pretty sophisticated DIYer, but I still picked up a lot in a few hours of consulting with Curt Hoyt.

For a stereo multi-driver application like you mention, there is probably little advantage in the Trinnov. The Optimizer is a very powerful and flexible room/speaker correction system, but is it better for stereo than you could get with Acourate or AudioLense? There is no way to tell without a pretty comprehensive double blind test, and you would need involvement from people who know each of those systems well. Other than that, there is very little innovation left in algorithms for crossovers, phase, delay, etc. The math is well understood, and extremely accurate in modern 64 bit double precision software.

Where the Trinnov is really differentiated is in multi-channel systems, for both music and movies. As I've said before on this thread, music listening through Optimizer room correction with Auro3D up-mixing creates for me a qualitatively different and superior experience to any 2 channel system I've ever had. Setting up such a system is complex and expensive, for sure, so not for everyone.

BTW the Trinnov does provide for AES digital output in addition to balanced analog on all channels, so if maximizing measured digital performance is the goal external DACs can be used. I doubt that there would actually be an audible benefit, given all the other more significant sources of noise and distortion in recordings, rooms, speakers, etc. But then my ears are 60 years old and I'm at the point where life is too short to fuss about every little thing, so who am I to say :)
 

Bulldogger

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However well the Trinnov does or does not measure as a DAC, there is no question that the IP you pay for is primarily in the software, not the hardware.


Where the Trinnov is really differentiated is in multi-channel systems, for both music and movies. As I've said before on this thread, music listening through Optimizer room correction with Auro3D up-mixing creates for me a qualitatively different and superior experience to any 2 channel system I've ever had.

BTW the Trinnov does provide for AES digital output in addition to balanced analog on all channels, so if maximizing measured digital performance is the goal external DACs can be used
I would like to see the measurements because of claims that the it sounds BETTER than two channel dacs costing as nearly much for just two channels in stereo mode as this processor. Performance is also compared to very well measuring two channel preamps. I am very familiar with the measurements of many two channel components. Many have expressed these types of sentiments over the years with various prepros, not just Trinnov users. I have never agreed which is why I have 4 external dacs for my first 7.1 channels and don't use prepros with music. With my processor, you don't have to buy the dacs if you are not going to use them. With Trinnov, I would want very good performance for the dacs, in all areas at the price point of the processor because you are forced to buy them .

Trinnov excels with Auro 3D up-mixing. It's the best I've heard. There have always been different "camps" here. Many with the Lexicon MC12 loved that processor for Logic 7 "up-mixing" of two channel sources. Many could not fathom how you couldn't enjoy two recording more with "upmixing." I am in the other camp. I've never preferred two channels source material "upmixed" with any prepro. I do enjoy expanding the channels for movies.

I expect Trinnov to measure well in comparison to the rest of the field of prepros. The preformance of the dac chips however will limit it. Companies with prepros at a fraction of the price with better "chips" have the potential to significantly outperform its testing measurements but that does not mean they will.
 

dualazmak

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I would like to see the measurements because of claims that the it sounds BETTER than two channel dacs costing as nearly much for just two channels in stereo mode as this processor.
...

Yes, I personally agree with you, since I recently completed my multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier stereo system with silent PC+Okto DAC8PRO skipping the extraordinary expensive Trinnov as written in my post #118 here in this thread.

As amirm has already intensively measured Okto DAC8PRO and also measured Okto DAC8 Stereo (and both are so excellently ranked), let me join your interests on how Trinnov would be measured in the similar manner as DAC in two channel stereo (or 8-channel) mode, even though I fully understand the Scott Borduin's emphasis on "Optimizer room correction with Auro3D up-mixing".
 
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Spocko

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Yes, I personally agree with you, since I recently completed my multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier stereo system with silent PC+Okto DAC8PRO skipping the extraordinary expensive Trinnov as written in my post #118 here in this thread.

As amirm has already intensively measured Okto DAC8PRO and also measured Okto DAC8 Stereo (and both are so excellently ranked), let me join your interests on how Trinnov would be measured in the similar manner as DAC in two channel stereo (or 8-channel) mode, even though I fully understand the Scott Borduin's emphasis on "Optimizer room correction with Auro3D up-mixing".
Between accurately correcting for room interaction via the Trinnov Optimizer and getting a higher SINAD measurements from the Okto, I prefer the audible benefits of better room correction for purposes of movie watching because I know that I will not notice the SINAD improvements in any of the Atmos immersive action movies I watch.
 

Dimifoot

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I prefer the audible benefits of better room correction for purposes of movie watching because I know that I will not notice the SINAD improvements in any of the Atmos immersive action movies I watch.
Not only in movies. In everything.
This is what our host has written for a 92 SINAD Prepro:
From subjective point of view, if you wrestle enough with Audyssey Room EQ, you should be able to get better in-room performance than any non-EQ DAC in a real room.
And this for a simple minidsp device:
As it is, you would be compromising some performance to gain the benefits of its equalization. That technology if well implement, can make significant improvements to sound reproduction in your room so in balance you will come out way ahead
 

Asinus

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That is a lower performance analyzer than mine.
I think it is even a bit lower than the 525.

Have you considered an APIB and an input switcher? It is still two or three grand but it would allow to use the 555 on several channels, although measuring two at a time.
 

seedragon

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Does the Trinnov Altitude 16 really require a trained installer/calibrator to implement? I'm a tech guy who's pretty comfortable with REW, but I'd rather not have to get a new degree in order to get a processor up and running.
 

Scott Borduin

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Does the Trinnov Altitude 16 really require a trained installer/calibrator to implement? I'm a tech guy who's pretty comfortable with REW, but I'd rather not have to get a new degree in order to get a processor up and running.

If you're not intimidated by tech, you definitely can get up and running without consulting. The manual is freely available online:

https://www.trinnov.com/site/assets/files/1219/al32_usman_14_10_19_he_0001_sd.pdf

I set mine up and calibrated it myself and used it that way for a couple of years, and was totally happy with it. The value of consulting for me was in plumbing the depths of the Optimizer system, what the various advanced settings do, how to use the plethora of graphing and analysis options, using the target curve functionality optimally, a number of other little tips and tricks that aren't apparent even in that 170 page manual. If you're tech literate, I'd set it up and calibrate it yourself, use it for a while, then get consulting from people like Curt Hoyt or Adam Pelz if you want to really get into the details.

BTW the one area where the Trinnov is not SOTA is in multi-sub bass optimization. I used REW in conjunction with the free Multi Sub Optimizer program to determine PEQ and delays for my 4 subs. Trinnov is apparently working on something in the bass management area but not released yet.

There's a very active Trinnov thread on AVSForum which is a wealth of info. And the Trinnov folks have a bunch of online seminars/videos as well.
 

seedragon

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If you're not intimidated by tech, you definitely can get up and running without consulting. The manual is freely available online:

https://www.trinnov.com/site/assets/files/1219/al32_usman_14_10_19_he_0001_sd.pdf

I set mine up and calibrated it myself and used it that way for a couple of years, and was totally happy with it. The value of consulting for me was in plumbing the depths of the Optimizer system, what the various advanced settings do, how to use the plethora of graphing and analysis options, using the target curve functionality optimally, a number of other little tips and tricks that aren't apparent even in that 170 page manual. If you're tech literate, I'd set it up and calibrate it yourself, use it for a while, then get consulting from people like Curt Hoyt or Adam Pelz if you want to really get into the details.

BTW the one area where the Trinnov is not SOTA is in multi-sub bass optimization. I used REW in conjunction with the free Multi Sub Optimizer program to determine PEQ and delays for my 4 subs. Trinnov is apparently working on something in the bass management area but not released yet.

There's a very active Trinnov thread on AVSForum which is a wealth of info. And the Trinnov folks have a bunch of online seminars/videos as well.
That is extremely helpful. My specific use case is actually multi-sub integration with my mains--I have phase issues at the crossover between my mains and two subs that I cannot solve with Audyssey XT32. Thanks for pointing that out about Trinnov Optimizer. Multi-sub integration appears to be an area that a lot of solutions are lacking in; Dirac Live Bass Control was supposed to handle multi-sub integration, but it currently has a bug that digitally cancels low-frequency output when a correlated low frequencies move from one group of speakers to another (e.g., from mains to surrounds or visa versa).

Who would you say is SOTA for multi-sub integration well? RoomPerfect?
 

Scott Borduin

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That is extremely helpful. My specific use case is actually multi-sub integration with my mains--I have phase issues at the crossover between my mains and two subs that I cannot solve with Audyssey XT32. Thanks for pointing that out about Trinnov Optimizer. Multi-sub integration appears to be an area that a lot of solutions are lacking in; Dirac Live Bass Control was supposed to handle multi-sub integration, but it currently has a bug that digitally cancels low-frequency output when a correlated low frequencies move from one group of speakers to another (e.g., from mains to surrounds or visa versa).

Who would you say is SOTA for multi-sub integration well? RoomPerfect?

I wouldn't say I've followed the subject comprehensively, but Harman's ARCOS system is very advanced at creating optimally flat responses across a range of listening positions and then integrating them with satellite speakers using a combination of delay and phase. But ARCOS is not an end user capability, it's available only through JBL installation providers. In my case, I used Multi Sub Optimizer to compute the optimal PEQs and delays for each sub in the 4 sub system, and then integrated that 4 sub system into the mains using REW to experimentally find the delay settings for optimal integration. It's a bit of work but I get very flat response all through the bass region at the main listening position, with decently flat response at the other 5 seats as well.
 

TimoJ

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Every morning I first go to reviews to check if there are new AVR/AVP reviews but it's always yet another dongle or headphones... Should I read between the lines that AVP units had "issues" or are they still in the review line waiting for their turn? @amirm
 

Andysu

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Every morning I first go to reviews to check if there are new AVR/AVP reviews but it's always yet another dongle or headphones... Should I read between the lines that AVP units had "issues" or are they still in the review line waiting for their turn? @amirm
I read between the lines ------- cos it is just another BS avr avp that tries to be a Dolby CP200/500 the CP850/950 I wouldn't touch those atmos pro with a barge pole. So read between the lines ------- cos it is just more BS avr avp.
 

peng

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That is extremely helpful. My specific use case is actually multi-sub integration with my mains--I have phase issues at the crossover between my mains and two subs that I cannot solve with Audyssey XT32. Thanks for pointing that out about Trinnov Optimizer. Multi-sub integration appears to be an area that a lot of solutions are lacking in; Dirac Live Bass Control was supposed to handle multi-sub integration, but it currently has a bug that digitally cancels low-frequency output when a correlated low frequencies move from one group of speakers to another (e.g., from mains to surrounds or visa versa).

Who would you say is SOTA for multi-sub integration well? RoomPerfect?

XT32 and Sub EQ HT has no problem integrating my two subs and the front left right channels. Even with all channels, 5 subs altogether it is bad at all just not as excellent as just two subs and the two fronts. The only caveat is, if I use crossover points below 80 Hz it wouldn't do as good a job. So I would suggest before you spend a lot more on Trinnov and others, try using the App to do some manual fine tune and try different crossovers, 80 Hz seems to be the best bet, for me anyway.
 

Olli

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Who would you say is SOTA for multi-sub integration well? RoomPerfect?
From my experience, the best you can get is Audiolense. But it is not plug and play, especially not with AVRs.

I think you can get to good results with Trinnov, however for me it only worked by adding MSO (see graph below).

But this is again a bit complicated, if you are not enjoying all that fiddling, Dirac is delivering very good results while being very user friendly. I also have a Monoprice HTP-1 and the set up is definitely easier.

OTOH I have experienced the Trinnov customer service as abolutely stunning. Their support team was runninng me through the first setup online and since then has helped me with every request within a day. This is the best customer service I have seen so far.

So if you want an Altitude - they'll help you understanding the system, and once the new bass mgmgt solution gets implemented, it will most likely deliver great multi sub low end performance hassle free as well.


1620289278940.png
 
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Spocko

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From my experience, the best you can get is Audiolense. But it is not plug and play, especially not with AVRs.

I think you can get to good results with Trinnov, however for me it only worked by adding MSO (see graph below).

But this is again a bit complicated, if you are not enjoying all that fiddling, Dirac is delivering very good results while being very user friendly. I have a Monoprice HTP-1 and the set up is definitely easier.

OTOH I have experienced the Trinnov customer service as abolutely stunning. Their support team was runninng me through the first setup online and since then has helped me with every request within a day. This is the best customer service I have seen so far.

So if you want an Altitude - they'll help you undertanding the system, and once the new bass mgmgt solution gets implemented, it will most likely deliver great multi sub low end performance hassle free as well.


View attachment 128250
This is why I'm so glad I only need one sub for one listening position - more than one sub, it's either 4 or more but anything less is a nightmare.
 

abdo123

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This is why I'm so glad I only need one sub for one listening position - more than one sub, it's either 4 or more but anything less is a nightmare.

Not really, if you have two subs then just do the first sub with the subwoofer crawl (holding a calibrated microphone for ASR's seal of approval), place it where the crawl shows it to be the best. For the second subwoofer, do the subwoofer crawl too while the first subwoofer is running too in its determined location from the first crawl.

that is for irregularly shaped rooms, for regularly shaped rooms you can find all the possible configurations and all their respective shortcomings and advantages in Toole's book 'Sound Reproduction The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms'
 
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Spocko

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Not really, if you have two subs then just do the first sub with the subwoofer crawl (holding a calibrated microphone for ASR's seal of approval), place it where the crawl shows it to be the best. For the second subwoofer, do the subwoofer crawl too while the first subwoofer is running too in its determined location from the first crawl.

that is for irregularly shaped rooms, for regularly shaped rooms you can find all the possible configurations and all their respective shortcomings and advantages in Toole's book 'Sound Reproduction The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms'
LOL maybe I should have defined "nightmare" = subwoofer crawl. Although I must credit @hardisj for suggesting I use a microphone stand/pole to do the "crawl" so I never have to bend my back/knees/neck/shoulders. But the lazy way would be to simply stick subwoofers in 4 midpoints and let Dirac/Trinnov/RoomPerfect/GLM do the rest.
 
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