But you have already seen the measurements of the $6,000 NAD and the $5,000 Marantz separate prepro, did they look a whole lot better? I don't see $3,000 to $4,000 difference at all between them and the RX-A1080.
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Review and Measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR
- Thread starter amirm
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But you have already seen the measurements of the $6,000 NAD and the $5,000 Marantz separate prepro, did they look a whole lot better? I don't see $3,000 to $4,000 difference at all between them and the RX-A1080.
Thank you again for another detailed and must be time consuming review with so much measurements.
You assumption of "only one DAC....." is not correct. Most such AVR likely have two different DAC versions. I have seen the PCM5101 used in some Yamaha RX-A series for Zone2 and Zone3, but I am not sure if the coax and optical inputs are also routed to that DAC. The PCM5101, or the lower grade PCM5100 DACs certainly have lower THD+N specs than the ES9006.
"Almost" is the key word, I assume we can at least agree that it is in fact a "stand out" among the recently tested NAD T758 V3 and MRX520, if based on pure direct, analog in, and even HDMI in performance without DRC, am I right? The 3 AVRs are roughly in the same price range. Based on Crutchfield.com price (they have all 3), the Yamaha is $200 less.
GrimSurfer
Major Contributor
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Being better than less than ideal products isn't a strong basis for endorsement.
"Almost" is a term that can be freely used when the outcome isn't important to begin with. (Ever heard anyone say that they "almost" survived a heart attack? Is anyone happy about "almost" surviving cancer? Is an airline pilot overjoyed by "almost" reaching the runway?)
When you buy something, you don't actually save anything. So a more appropriate question is whether the performance of these products makes them worth purchasing in the first place...
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Yes, it costs money but also because these are network devices and that is what sells.
They are loath to remove legacy video features for some reason, so the features just seem to grow.
At the same time, amp gets squeezed the preamp outputs are removed from lower end models. Apparently, the amp implementation is tied to the preamp outputs causing the preamp outs to distort prematurely and shutdown without a speaker load. That is ridiculous.
All this has occurred because their are almost no performance reviews for these products.
Amplifiers in AVRs are not measured (on most other sites) with the same rigor as stand-alone amps.
Why not? they often drive the same speakers, don't they?
There is clear evidence of poor implementation, over-zealous protection mechanisms, poor AD conversion in these products.
For years, I pointed out the obvious, moving from Pure Direct to stereo sounded terrible on products I have owned.
You know what else sounds terrible, engage the 4 Ohm amplifier mode. It sounds bad even at 1 watt.
Perhaps, ASR measurements will cause manufacturers to put some effort into the performance of these products.
Starve the amps if they like, but at least include preamp outs that operate independently from the amplifier section.
Even better, allow amp channels to be turned off.
- Rich
I think some reviewers who know what they are reviewing let the charade slip when reviewing two channel amplifiers and make a point of dropping in a jibe or several about AVRs. Like the Audioholics review of the Yamaha AS801.
openvista
Member
Just read further into the thread where Gene says Yamaha told him (6 weeks ago) they weren't going to fix the noise issue on the CX-A5200. They were just going to let it ride on a $2500 USD product.
The last Yamaha pre pro or higher-end AVR I could find with actual measurements from Audioholics (or anyone else for that matter) is the CX-A5000. Recent reviews read like lightly edited marketing copy.
maty
Major Contributor
Going back to the two graphs of my previous comment. I have put them together because I have long been suspicious of the THD+N measurements of the Polish magazine. Those of Amir, with the AVR, are coincident with others available on the network.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
Amir's THD+N graph, 4 Ohms, with Pure Direct
1 watt -> -75 dB = 0.018%
Polish site, 4 Ohms, Pure Direct
1 watt -> about 0.18 %
The difference is of an order of magnitude!!!
The Polish graphs are still valid for a relative comparison with that of other products measured by them. If we focus on them because there are no others available, we better subtract an order of magnitude.
Hummm.... Maybe the Polish measurements are without Pure Direct!!!
Amir's THD+N graph, 4 Ohms, without Pure Direct
1 watt -> -65 dB = 0.05%
Nor are the measurements close enough
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
Amir's THD+N graph, 4 Ohms, with Pure Direct
1 watt -> -75 dB = 0.018%
Polish site, 4 Ohms, Pure Direct
1 watt -> about 0.18 %
The difference is of an order of magnitude!!!
The Polish graphs are still valid for a relative comparison with that of other products measured by them. If we focus on them because there are no others available, we better subtract an order of magnitude.
Hummm.... Maybe the Polish measurements are without Pure Direct!!!
Amir's THD+N graph, 4 Ohms, without Pure Direct
1 watt -> -65 dB = 0.05%
Nor are the measurements close enough
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But the A-S801 is a good example of an AVR related integrated amp. Unless you use the USB DAC feature, the optical and coax signals are routed to the lower end dac, not the ES9010 K2M. It also has the same kind of LSI chip for the vol control. If the user does not know such facts, they will hear much better sound quality than the RX-A AVRs, such the 3080..
Going back to the two graphs of my previous comment. I have put them together because I have long been suspicious of the THD+N measurements of the Polish magazine. Those of Amir, with the AVR, are coincident with others available on the network.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
Amir's THD+N graph, 4 Ohms, with Pure Direct
1 watt -> -75 dB = 0.018%
Polish site, 4 Ohms, Pure Direct
1 watt -> about 0.18 %
The difference is of an order of magnitude!!!
The Polish graphs are still valid for a relative comparison with that of other products measured by them. If we focus on them because there are no others available, we better subtract an order of magnitude.
Hummm.... Maybe the Polish measurements are without Pure Direct!!!
Amir's THD+N graph, 4 Ohms, without Pure Direct
1 watt -> -65 dB = 0.05%
Logically I agree with you, but even on relative basis, I really don't trust they follow the same procedures consistently enough.
Yes, and what I was saying is that I'm hoping a multi ch pre-pro will hit the market someday that measures really well. Maybe the upcoming Monolith multi ch pre pro will measure better and actually be worth the cost (I think it's $3k-$4k). I believe it'll be built by ATI, though that doesn't guarantee anything. Building a great poweramp is a different skill set from building a great pre-pro.
I know that what's currently out there doesn't perform great. Curious about the top of the line Yamaha pre-pro, but probably won't measure much better than the Yamaha AVR. I think Gene at Audioholics had claimed as much, that there were issues.
In the end, all we can hope for is that manufacturers will start paying attention to sites like this. They certainly should have the engineering know how to build an excellent product, they just choose not to, probably due to the bean counters, and well, the bulk of consumers not knowing any better. Still too much snake oil in the audiophile world.
maty
Major Contributor
Only you need a very good preamp and... if you listen to very good recordings with high dynamic range and... With modern commercial music or films you do not need them!
If I were responsible for one of those large manufacturers I would not feel very motivated to improve the specifications because the vast majority of their consumers do not listen to music recordings that allow them to be evidenced, such is the sad reality of the current market, and worse in the future.
What motivation do large film producers have to produce adult movies if they do not go to the movies? Teen audience, teen product and point, limiting the risk.
- End off topic -
What motivation do large film producers have to produce adult movies if they do not go to the movies? Teen audience, teen product and point, limiting the risk.
- End off topic -
A very disappointing result, with severals strange issues. -I have never liked the impression I got of Aventage series. I've had several RX-V series receivers, the latest purchase is RX-V685 (550€) which uses old dacs, most likely the whole layout is different from Aventages, as well as price range.
I haven't seen measurements, but S&V tells this https://www.soundvisionreview.com/hi-fi-home-theater/amplifiers-receivers/yamaha-rx-v685-review/
The RX-V685 has a decent build quality and feels very well put together. A look inside tells us that Yamaha’s engineers have once again done a solid job and the choice of components is nothing short of impressive at this price point; we can see separate digital and analog sections with four Burr-Brown PCM5102A two-channel 32-bit converters, Sanken’s A1695 and C4468 output transistors, and Nippon Chemi-Con capacitors.
A-Sxxx series stereo amps use PCM5102A too. it would be nice to see RX-V685 tested!
I haven't seen measurements, but S&V tells this https://www.soundvisionreview.com/hi-fi-home-theater/amplifiers-receivers/yamaha-rx-v685-review/
The RX-V685 has a decent build quality and feels very well put together. A look inside tells us that Yamaha’s engineers have once again done a solid job and the choice of components is nothing short of impressive at this price point; we can see separate digital and analog sections with four Burr-Brown PCM5102A two-channel 32-bit converters, Sanken’s A1695 and C4468 output transistors, and Nippon Chemi-Con capacitors.
A-Sxxx series stereo amps use PCM5102A too. it would be nice to see RX-V685 tested!
maty
Major Contributor
[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3004-yamaha-rx-v685
With this H3 and H5 I doubt it sounds great with very good recordings -> detailed but sterile, machine sound. OK with films (detailed) but with music... I know that harmonics are below 90 dB, but the absence of the odds is a very bad signal. For me, the harmonic profiles fulfill the function of the canaries in the coal mines, if they died the miners had to run away...
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dB[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3004-yamaha-rx-v685
With this H3 and H5 I doubt it sounds great with very good recordings -> detailed but sterile, machine sound. OK with films (detailed) but with music... I know that harmonics are below 90 dB, but the absence of the odds is a very bad signal. For me, the harmonic profiles fulfill the function of the canaries in the coal mines, if they died the miners had to run away...
Would you prefer the exact same values for H3 and H5 but with also H2 and H4 at like -85dB, than this?
maty
Major Contributor
This is my criteria.
With electronic music it may sound good but with acoustic instrumentation that profile is counterproductive.
If you listen to acoustic or electrified instrumentation better than the harmonic profile is H2 dominant and monotonously decreasing, be H2 above or below 90 dB. It does not guarantee that the sound is great, I consider it a necessary condition.
H2 at -84 dB is a good compromise between H2 at -73 dB and without harmonics above 90 dB.
In the end it is our ear / brain who has to choose the H2 level that we like with the most music styles we listen to (it is supposed to be great recording quality). With the equipment playing in our room, with its characteristics and not that of a shop room very well acoustically conditioned.
* If you only listen to complex music like electronic or orchestral, better H2 < -90 dB.
* If you also listen to small acoustic groups (jazz, traditional, vocal...), then H2 at -84 dB maybe is a good compromise.
And H3 about 15 dB less than H2, if H2 at -73 dB.
If H2 < - 90 dB is not necessary that the difference be so much.
With electronic music it may sound good but with acoustic instrumentation that profile is counterproductive.
If you listen to acoustic or electrified instrumentation better than the harmonic profile is H2 dominant and monotonously decreasing, be H2 above or below 90 dB. It does not guarantee that the sound is great, I consider it a necessary condition.
H2 at -84 dB is a good compromise between H2 at -73 dB and without harmonics above 90 dB.
In the end it is our ear / brain who has to choose the H2 level that we like with the most music styles we listen to (it is supposed to be great recording quality). With the equipment playing in our room, with its characteristics and not that of a shop room very well acoustically conditioned.
* If you only listen to complex music like electronic or orchestral, better H2 < -90 dB.
* If you also listen to small acoustic groups (jazz, traditional, vocal...), then H2 at -84 dB maybe is a good compromise.
And H3 about 15 dB less than H2, if H2 at -73 dB.
If H2 < - 90 dB is not necessary that the difference be so much.
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There are two DACs onboard the A-S801. You can Google its service manual and see it for yourself. It is only shown on page 34 and page 36 (block diagrams). The 9010 K2M, similar specs to the ES9006/9007, appeared to be used for the USB DAC input only. The service manual for the A-S701 is also Googleable and it shows the PCM5102 on one page and PCM5101 on another. The PCM5102 is 6 dB better in DR so I think the 701 likely has the 5101 as well, like it's higher end brother. The S701 has just one DAC (the 5101 or 5102) because it does not offer the USB feature.
You will also see that the so called integrated amp used quite a few same kind of multi-channel ICs in the audio path.
Audio.com.pl has tested and measured bot RX-A1080 and RX-V658 1000-1400€ / 530-600€
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3036-yamaha-rx-a1080
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3004-yamaha-rx-v685
Not a big difference, but the RX-A is unable to drive 4R load!
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3036-yamaha-rx-a1080
https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3004-yamaha-rx-v685
Not a big difference, but the RX-A is unable to drive 4R load!
That seems consistent with Yamaha AVRs, at least the lower models such as the one Gene measured, i.e. the RX-V860, and now Amir found the same happening with the RX-A1080 and iiuc, he was using just a single tone of 1 kHz. That is not cool..
Denon/Marantz don't seem to have this issue, though the SR8012 would also shutdown on AH's bench apparently at above 1.5 V, but not with single tone measurements, only with the full band sweep to measure continuous output. See Gene's response (post#51/52):
https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...ain-should-they-go-much-further.115249/page-3
Using single sine wave tone, I could get my X4400H and AV8801 to output higher than 4 V rms and never shutdown. Time permitting, I am going to measure them using pink noise and see if I can get them to shut down at above 4 V or lower.
I am using 11.1.4 so the L/R channels are re-assigned, i.e. disconnected to the power amp, so according to Gene I should be fine though I would be fine regardless because the loudest I can withstand is vol at -10, more like -15.
For AVRs, the Denon AVR-X8500H definitely won't have this limitation because it has the preamp mode that still won't shut down the power amp section but it does disconnect it to the pre out via relays.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
The issue can be easily solved by muting the inputs to the power amp stages with a single FET per channel. Many proper integrated stereo amplifiers controlled muting of input and output in pre/power configurations.
Their 'protection' for the power amplifier stages tests for (among other things) absolute voltage swing and if it is above a certain threshold (ie over driven) the protection trips. It is exacerbated and trips much earlier if there is no load on the amplifier stages.
These AVRs are a joke and have been for decades in terms of performance. Nobody took them seriously when they first came to the market as single box solutions to replace the standalone AV switchers, preamplifiers, processors and power amplifiers that we used to sell. They were a one stop shop full of compromises from day one. AVRs are toys, jack of all trades and a master of none.
I'm sure Amir has seen some of the cost no object home theatres installed in his Seattle area in the early to mid 90s where amplification consisted of a stack of Yamaha MX-1000 power amplifers (below), AV remote switchers, standalone processors and speakers that cost as much as a small house.
Two channels per amplifier. 260W continuous (all day) into 8 ohms per channel. IHF dynamic power of 1KW into 1 ohm. THD of 0.003% from 250mW to rated power- any frequency. S/N ratio of 126dB.
Internal shot:
They used to sell for AU$1899 each and I always thought they were good value, but a bit cheaply made as compared to other TOTL amplifiers from the likes of Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo etc. Oh, how the mightly have fallen over the last 30 years...
Their 'protection' for the power amplifier stages tests for (among other things) absolute voltage swing and if it is above a certain threshold (ie over driven) the protection trips. It is exacerbated and trips much earlier if there is no load on the amplifier stages.
These AVRs are a joke and have been for decades in terms of performance. Nobody took them seriously when they first came to the market as single box solutions to replace the standalone AV switchers, preamplifiers, processors and power amplifiers that we used to sell. They were a one stop shop full of compromises from day one. AVRs are toys, jack of all trades and a master of none.
I'm sure Amir has seen some of the cost no object home theatres installed in his Seattle area in the early to mid 90s where amplification consisted of a stack of Yamaha MX-1000 power amplifers (below), AV remote switchers, standalone processors and speakers that cost as much as a small house.
Two channels per amplifier. 260W continuous (all day) into 8 ohms per channel. IHF dynamic power of 1KW into 1 ohm. THD of 0.003% from 250mW to rated power- any frequency. S/N ratio of 126dB.
Internal shot:
They used to sell for AU$1899 each and I always thought they were good value, but a bit cheaply made as compared to other TOTL amplifiers from the likes of Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo etc. Oh, how the mightly have fallen over the last 30 years...
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