a big dealer of Wyred4Sound got super anguish-ish on the other forums, saying that this thread is lying, WTF!
So I hear assumptions and guesses only. Nothing conclusive. Can we somehow check your claims in scientific way?I will not associate them with terms as *downside*. Negative feedback is one crucial design technique and in most situations it is a must have.
OP as a standardized part, is a super useful component which is used everywhere and it gives you effective and consistent result.
As you can see from the FFT chart I showed above, with no negative feedback, the distortions, the harmonics would jump high.
The key is human ears are not measurement instruments, some ears may actually love those harmonics. The music just sound more alive.
Another argument is negative feedback may generate phase shift which human ears do not like. So people start to design those high speed amps to reduce the phase shift. In general, NFB or not, is up the designers to choose, as far as the machines are stable and can sell, they can do whatever they want to.
OP works by high open loop gain and feedback loop. You can get very good performance out of it. And companies keep bringing out higher performance parts every year. Some claim they can identify OP sound yet personally I feel it is a mix of everything. Nothing conclusive.
My take is a DAC should at least have a set of decent performance numbers. After that, it's up to the consumer to decide. There are way too many marketing games in this business.
Machines like AP use ADC to convert signal to digital data before going to FFT. The conversion errors have a big impact on the accuracy for low level frequency components hence the FFT gain people are talking about.
So why on earth somebody need DAC with “sound”, then amp/preamp with “sound” when you can add harmonics, which unlikely but possibly make music more alive and not so sterile, during recording/mixing/mastering/playback?
Exactly!And even if you can't enjoy the recordings as they are without giving them some "color" via your gear, then why spend so much money on it?
Oh my...@amirm Pls try more voodoo (or not?) gear like this: https://www.akikoaudio.com/en/akiko-audio/akiko-audio-audio-accessories as they dispatch free of taxes (priced-in) to the U.S.
Which improvements can you expect?
- Analogue sound: immediately audible; not subtle!
- Music is experienced as more natural and cleaner.
- Remarkable improvements of the voice rendering; fuller sounds and less troublesome ‘S’ sounds
Why would 2 Dutch guys model their company under some pseudo Japanese facade for its product identity ?
An excerpt from this product page:@amirm Pls try more voodoo (or not?) gear like this: https://www.akikoaudio.com/en/akiko-audio/akiko-audio-audio-accessories as they dispatch free of taxes (priced-in) to the U.S.
Our goal was to develop an AC improver that could exceed the existing models of other brands and our own former E-Tuning... And we succeeded, convince yourself!
They actually have their own measurements. Here is an example:@amirm Pls try more voodoo (or not?) gear like this: https://www.akikoaudio.com/en/akiko-audio/akiko-audio-audio-accessories as they dispatch free of taxes (priced-in) to the U.S.
When we start a product design, we do not set a price-point. We do everything necessary to get the best performance from the device and then we tally up the costs and set the price
Class A and class AB amps have little phase shift. About 6 degrees at 20 kHz or less. It is not a problem, hence very few specify it!
In diyaudio.com, some designers defens NFB < 30 dB if you want sound more realistic and 3-D. If you add SET topology (H2 predominance) then you can have a tube sound without the great distortions. H2 level? designer choice. Of course, with H3 10 dB lower than H2. Better without other harmonics < 90 dB.
Amp bandwith better < 350 kHz to avoid RF/EMI interferences.
With greater NFB the numbers are better but the sound is more sterile, they say.
a big dealer of Wyred4Sound got super anguish-ish on the other forums, saying that this thread is lying, WTF!
all I can say is that: go away, you're selling 1999 products. Even 1999 products could do better specs in real life.
So I hear assumptions and guesses only. Nothing conclusive. Can we somehow check your claims in scientific way?
From your own words it turns out that to make transparent DAC I better use OPs and NFB.
So why on earth somebody need DAC with “sound”, then amp/preamp with “sound” when you can add harmonics, which unlikely but possibly make music more alive and not so sterile, during recording/mixing/mastering/playback?
I assume that the right answer is: such devices are easier to sell in this crazy world
Can you please explain how FFT gain is the result of ADC errors?
Very good point
And even if you can't enjoy the recordings as they are without giving them some "color" via your gear, then why spend so much money on it?
There's this strange disciplin in music called 'circuit bending' where you mess with the electronics in toy instruments and old video game consoles to get weird sounds. Why not just do the same thing with a cheap DAC and call it a day?
We should try stacking or filling the entire thing with those stickers haha. And especially Schiit gear!They actually have their own measurements. Here is an example:
View attachment 21200
I mean really. You can run that test twice in a row and get that kind of tiny variation. Even if it is true, it is less than 1 dB in a distortion graph that is already down 120 dB.
I’ve asked for some scientific proofs of your words, but unfortunately I see nothing.Nothing conclusive because you need to examine each case carefully one by one. For instance, if I heard the OP sound very clinical, I might call this an OP sound. Yet after I changed a capacitor in the feedback loop, the sound might become mellow and analog like. So OP sound or not?
As for the sound coloration, in most cases, what coloration a DAC can do is often different from what an amp can do. I like to compare this to cooking. You can add flavor with black pepper, you can add flavor with rosemary. However, you can not use rosemary to duplicate black pepper's taste.