Review and Measurements of Wireworld Starlight 7 USB Cable

[pkane]

However WRT your quoted statement, I think you are inventing a situation that exists more in the engineering community. IME audiophiles don't think they are "better" than anyone let alone engineer

The situation is most certainly not invented, as it's quite the reality on most popular audiophile forums. There is a large amount of derision and disdain towards anyone even mentioning measurements or proper engineering. Having a background in electronics or an EE degree is an automatic disqualifier there, unless that EE also peddles in high-end audiophile snake oil.

Sure there are many types of audiophiles. But it is the pursuit of high quality sound with the complete abandon of basic scientific and engineering principles that seems to dominate the majority of discussions on those other forums. ASR is one of the few notable exceptions.

 

[sbo6]

The situation is most certainly not invented, as it's quite the reality on most popular audiophile forums. There is a large amount of derision and disdain towards anyone even mentioning measurements or proper engineering. Having a background in electronics or an EE degree is an automatic disqualifier there, unless that EE also peddles in high-end audiophile snake oil.

Sure there are many types of audiophiles. But it is the pursuit of high quality sound with the complete abandon of basic scientific and engineering principles that seems to dominate the majority of discussions on those other forums. ASR is one of the few notable exceptions.

And therein lies the problem - some in the engineering community see audiophiles as science averse and some in the audiophile community see engineers as measurement - only focused. I guess having previously been an Engineering Tech and an Audiophile puts me somewhere in the middle In the end we all want great sounding music, we can agree on that, no? Happy listening!

 

[amirm]

It wouldn't be very difficult to build a test rig allowing instant switching between USB cables.

That test rig would then become the reason people won't believe the results.

 

[DonH56]

I'll restrain myself from pushing any further about measurements. However WRT your quoted statement, I think you are inventing a situation that exists more in the engineering community. IME audiophiles don't think they are "better" than anyone let alone engineers, if anything many audiophiles are engineers. I think you're conveniently putting them all in a box. To me audiophiles span the gamut but ultimately all have one thing in common - the pursuit of high quality sound to play music.

The quote was from the latest Stereophile issue but I have run into that attitude, many, many times over the years. I suppose my decades in and out of the business could be populated with outliers, or maybe I have just imagined ("invented") it all... But read reviews and letters in most any issue of any audio magazine and you'll see the dismissive attitude toward measurements and technical folk in general (unless they align with their viewpoint, natch). Or check out some of the other audio fora around, or some of the comments in various threads here. This forum is focused on the science and arguably is too dismissive of the "other" side, but frankly of the dozen or so audio fora in which I have participated over the past twenty years or so only 2 or 3 are not completely biased to the subjective and any attempt to provide any sort of technical basis as a counter is shouted down. I've known a lot of really great audiophiles and engineers, many of them the same people, but there has always been a bit of a gap between those leaning mostly subjective vs. those leaning mostly objectively. Yin and yang.

There is the equally vexing attitude that measurements tell everything, but as an engineer (and musician) I don't have an unbiased viewpoint. I generally try not to be too dogmatic about the engineering side, but have been in hot water in more than one debate for countering what I perceived as subjective bias unsupported by science, with engineering facts and figures. Chances are what I think are reasonable posts to me, come across as know-it-all and condescending to them, one reason I am trying to cut back on posting. Just like their posts that if I cannot hear what they hear then clearly my hearing/system/whatever is not good enough seem arrogant and condescending to me.

The saying I made up many, many years ago was "audiophiles listen to the gear, musicians to the music". That was back in the 70's/80's when I was in the biz and so many audiophiles (a fairly new label then, at least to me) seemed overly concerned about measurements and prices (not always in that order). Too often the pursuit of sound overwhelms the simple enjoyment of the music IME/IMO. When taking measurements or in the practice room I am analytical; but when performing and just listening for fun, I try to turn that side off.

 

[sbo6]

The quote was from the latest Stereophile issue but I have run into that attitude, many, many times over the years. I suppose my decades in and out of the business could be populated with outliers, or maybe I have just imagined ("invented") it all... But read reviews and letters in most any issue of any audio magazine and you'll see the dismissive attitude toward measurements and technical folk in general (unless they align with their viewpoint, natch). Or check out some of the other audio fora around, or some of the comments in various threads here. This forum is focused on the science and arguably is too dismissive of the "other" side, but frankly of the dozen or so audio fora in which I have participated over the past twenty years or so only 2 or 3 are not completely biased to the subjective and any attempt to provide any sort of technical basis as a counter is shouted down. I've known a lot of really great audiophiles and engineers, many of them the same people, but there has always been a bit of a gap between those leaning mostly subjective vs. those leaning mostly objectively. Yin and yang.

There is the equally vexing attitude that measurements tell everything, but as an engineer (and musician) I don't have an unbiased viewpoint. I generally try not to be too dogmatic about the engineering side, but have been in hot water for more than one debate for countering what I perceived as subjective bias unsupported by science, with engineering facts and figures. Chances are what I think are reasonable posts to me, come across as know-it-all and condescending to them, one reason I am trying to cut back on posting. Just like their posts that if I cannot hear what they hear then clearly my hearing/system/whatever is not good enough seem arrogant and condescending to me.

The saying I made up many, many years ago was "audiophiles listen to the gear, musicians to the music". That was back in the 70's/80's when I was in the biz and so many audiophiles (a fairly new label then, at least to me) seemed overly concerned about measurements and prices (not always in that order). Too often the pursuit of sound overwhelms the simple enjoyment of the music IME/IMO. When taking measurements or in the practice room I am analytical; but when performing and just listening for fun, I try to turn that side off.

You said it better than I, and also being an engineer, musician and audiophile I can certainly relate.

 

[sbo6]

Who said that?

I'm sure there are dozens of examples throughout this forum that justify it.

 

[sbo6]

The situation is most certainly not invented, as it's quite the reality on most popular audiophile forums. There is a large amount of derision and disdain towards anyone even mentioning measurements or proper engineering. Having a background in electronics or an EE degree is an automatic disqualifier there, unless that EE also peddles in high-end audiophile snake oil.

Sure there are many types of audiophiles. But it is the pursuit of high quality sound with the complete abandon of basic scientific and engineering principles that seems to dominate the majority of discussions on those other forums. ASR is one of the few notable exceptions.

I think part of the problem is that you listen to music, measurements are only a part that makes up the experience. For example, go to a Corvette car forum and folks will discuss how the cars handle and feel, the acceleration and cornering. There may be some discussion about HP, but most folks aren't delving into torque and HP over RPM curves, cam specifications, transmission gear ratios, etc. Why? Because while all the measurements are an integral part of the vehicle it's the experience (visual, tactile, etc.) that ultimately matters.

 

[pkane]

I think part of the problem is that you listen to music, measurements are only a part that makes up the experience. For example, go to a Corvette car forum and folks will discuss how the cars handle and feel, the acceleration and cornering. There may be some discussion about HP, but most folks aren't delving into torque and HP over RPM curves, cam specifications, transmission gear ratios, etc. Why? Because while all the measurements are an integral part of the vehicle it's the experience (visual, tactile, etc.) that ultimately matters.

Not quite: when I listen to music, measurements make up none of my experience. When I decide on what piece of equipment to purchase, just like when I decide on a car, measurements and engineering are certainly a big part of the decision process. But they are also never the entire process.

 

[sbo6]

Not quite: when I listen to music, measurements make up none of my experience. When I decide on what piece of equipment to purchase, just like when I decide on a car, measurements and engineering are certainly a big part of the decision process. But they are also never the entire process.

You are among the minority. How many women (~50% of auto buyers) and men care about measurements and engineering when car shopping? I'd wager <20%? And how many focus more on the color, the gadgets, the ride, etc? Of course the auto type plays into the equation so MMV.

 

[pkane]

You are among the minority. How many women (~50% of auto buyers) and men care about measurements and engineering when car shopping? I'd wager <20%? And how many focus more on the color, the gadgets, the ride, etc? Of course the auto type plays into the equation so MMV.

I think your estimate will be way low among the readers of this forum. But that’s just a guess.

 

[amirm]

You are among the minority. How many women (~50% of auto buyers) and men care about measurements and engineering when car shopping?

The difference between cars is not the same as audio gear unless you tell me you sit on said gear and go "zoom zoom."

The number for car enthusiasts who look at measurements is 100% by the way. You can't include the general public as we are not the general audio listening community either.

Audio gear like cables perform identically the same as other cables as far as our hearing senses are concerned. Not so with driving a car. So the analogy doesn't hold anyway.

 

[sbo6]

The difference between cars is not the same as audio gear unless you tell me you sit on said gear and go "zoom zoom."

The number for car enthusiasts who look at measurements is 100% by the way. You can't include the general public as we are not the general audio listening community either.

Audio gear like cables perform identically the same as other cables as far as our hearing senses are concerned. Not so with driving a car. So the analogy doesn't hold anyway.

I think you missed my point - pkane and the majority on this forum are in the public minority if they purchase autos and rely on engineering and measurements. There's plenty of analysis backing this up.

In terms of cables, we'll have to agree to disagree. I and many believe there are electrical and mechanical properties that do affect sonics. To what degree is debatable and much depends on system resolution and the listeners' ears. Happy Listening!!

 

[amirm]

I think you missed my point - pkane and the majority on this forum are in the public minority if they purchase autos and rely on engineering and measurements. There's plenty of analysis backing this up.

As are car enthusiasts who hang around forums. No different than you and I are about audio. My son is a car enthusiasts. Doesn't sound like you are.

 

[amirm]

In terms of cables, we'll have to agree to disagree. I and many believe there are electrical and mechanical properties that do affect sonics. To what degree is debatable and much depends on system resolution and the listeners' ears. Happy Listening!!

No we don't. Not here. This is a forum that is guided by audio science and engineering. So it is not "my" position you are disagreeing with but the entire community that brings you every bit of technology and research that advances our hobby.

If you want to hold on to your position you can, but please don't argue for it. We know the talking points and can show them conclusively to be wrong in multiple ways including listening tests. No different than your doctor telling you smoking oregano doesn't make one's cancer go away.

My suggestion is to hang low on these points, stay with us and read what comes out of this forum. We are not dismissive of what people think and hence the reason I took the time to make this and other measurements (e.g. USB cables). Over time hopefully you too adopt what the real world of audio is about.

 

[sbo6]

As are car enthusiasts who hang around forums. No different than you and I are about audio. My son is a car enthusiasts. Doesn't sound like you are.

I am a car enthusiast, I'm amongst the minority when it somes to buying cars. Used to build and race 30 years ago.

 

[SIY]

Tell racers that there's special power in changing out the materials in the valve cover gasket, but you can't measure it on a dyno and there's no change in the 1/4 mile time. But it's there for those sensitive enough to feel it.

 

[amirm]

I am a car enthusiast, I'm amongst the minority when it somes to buying cars. Used to build and race 30 years ago.

And you look at measurements, right?

We are also among tiny minority of people who listen and enjoy music. Probably much tinier market segment than car enthusiasts. Heaven knows there are tons of car shows on TV but none about audiophiles!

 

[Blumlein 88]

And you look at measurements, right?

We are also among tiny minority of people who listen and enjoy music. Probably much tinier market segment than car enthusiasts. Heaven knows there are tons of car shows on TV but none about audiophiles!

Man what an Idea.

I propose the audio ODD couple. We'll pair up Amir and Michael Fremer for fun audio activities together. We'll let Thomas be the host of the show.
It'll be like the audio equivalent of that Ozzy Osbourne reality show. East coast, West coast. New York, Washington state, subjective, objective, LPs and digital. It'll have all the hot button issues in one show.

Now which network should it be on?

 

[sbo6]

We are not dismissive of what people think and hence the reason I took the time to make this and other measurements (e.g. USB cables). Over time hopefully you too adopt what the real world of audio is about.

Please tell me you're joking, right? It took all of 2 minutes from my last post for a condescending / wink wink jab jab post to occur.

I applaud this forum for providing scientific - based information to the audio community but please don't kid yourself that it's remotely non - biased or not dismissive. Nothing wrong with that but please, call a spade a spade my friend.

 

[amirm]

Please tell me you're joking, right? It took all of 2 minutes from my last post for a condescending / wink wink jab jab post to occur.

I applaud this forum for providing scientific - based information to the audio community but please don't kid yourself that it's remotely non - biased or not dismissive. Nothing wrong with that but please, call a spade a spade my friend.

You are in a thread where I measured differences between USB cables. If we were dismissive, this would never happen.

As for bias, how often you call your doctor biased because he follows medical science? How dismissive would he be if you told him you were going against his advice and follow what non-doctor say online about your ailment? Don't judge us any different.