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Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

diegooo1972

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This guy has no clue in modern marketing and rules but I bet in his entourage he knows perfectly well how to sell a 1800$ usb cable or same priced toroidal. Different rules different people and different marketing.
I'm not sure that we are talking about a pure tech soul.
 

Azeia

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Last posts on HCFR by Vincent from Totaldac, about Amir's measurements :
"il faut juste ne pas laisser de boucle de masse ni poser l'alim trop près du DAC"
> you have to not let ground loop and to not put the power supply too close to the DAC.
Holy crap, the thing about the power supply placement reminds me of the Apple "you're holding it wrong" meme, or the Sony PSP "square button" problem back in the day, which was also blamed on consumers. Jesus, how fucking low can this guy sink?

As for the ground loop; if you can't add an isolator to your circuit for a 14,000 USD product, then how about you shut the hell up? (uncouth mode; engage)
 

graz_lag

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Well no actually. This guy has obviously no focus on marketing or public relations. He probably just lost a good part of future customers, but doesn't care (his response to the concern "People might buy less NOS DACs because of these measurements" was "Great, that means less competition").

He is an engineer with the fixed idea to build the best possible ladder DAC, regardless if it makes sense to us to build such a DAC at all.
If you measure his masterpiece "wrongly", he treats you like an incapable.
He would react to the quantization noise with "don't tell me something which was clear before you opened your mouth. This was never the point.".

HaHaHa!
Sure, my point was around the similar attitude between 'snake oil' and 'pushy, crooked' sales, which pertain to lemon rattletrap salesmen ...
 

THW

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As for the ground loop; if you can't add an isolator to your circuit for a 14,000 USD product, then how about you shut the hell up? (uncouth mode; engage)

you’d think that at that price point, where everyone else can make reliable electronic equipment that is easy to use, this particular contraption would be the same as well.

so far for most of my electronic equipment its mostly “install drivers (if needed), plug into power socket and use”, why this $12,400 contraption would need any special care when electronics priced at a much lower point don’t is beyond me.
 
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BDWoody

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you’d think that at that price point, where everyone else can make reliable electronic equipment that is easy to use, this particular contraption would be the same as well.

so far for most of my electronic equipment its mostly “install drivers (if needed), plug into power socket and use”, why this $12,400 contraption would need any special care when electronics priced at a much lower price don’t is beyond me.

It should come with an assistant...
 

diegooo1972

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Last posts on HCFR by Vincent from Totaldac, about Amir's measurements :
"il faut juste ne pas laisser de boucle de masse ni poser l'alim trop près du DAC"
> you have to not let ground loop and to not put the power supply too close to the DAC.
"Non il n'a pas rectifié son erreur, il laisse une bosse sur la réponse en fréquence à 20kHz. [...]"
> no he [Amir] did not correct his mistake, he leaves a bump on the frequency response at 20kHz.

This is instead a brilliant marketing move.
He use ground isolation to discredit Amirm's measurements and leveraging on more snake oil about ground isolation that will make your DAC working instead of sounds like crap.
Will follow the new "Totaldac End Of The World Thermonuclear Plug Ground Isolator And Chassis Separator" for the modest price of 3600$.
Since every Totaldac object costs 1800$ and this one has 2 functions.
 

sweetsounds

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This is instead a brilliant marketing move.
He use ground isolation to discredit Amirm's measurements and leveraging on more snake oil about ground isolation that will make your DAC working instead of sounds like crap.
Will follow the new "Totaldac End Of The World Thermonuclear Plug Ground Isolator And Chassis Separator" for the modest price of 3600$.
Since every Totaldac object costs 1800$ and this one has 2 functions.

The chassis separator is built in actually, but needs to be activated.

The profit margin of this company was postes in this threat is actually low compared to the price level and the risks. They probably sell 100 to 150 units per year.
 

diegooo1972

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Business risk don't justify snake oil.
Prices are outrageous in relation of the objects sold.
Do you think buying a glass of sand for 3k is not outrageuos ?
Even if the sand is taken by 10 virgins strippers in a beach that emerge every 10 years on the island of nowhere.
I don't buy snake oil for an outrageous price only because the seller may risk in business. His business.
 

Xulonn

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That's actually a myth. Testing methodology is highly complex, and even seasoned scientists will employ specialist experts to properly design tests. Only on forums is ABX- double blind talked about as the generic "gold standard" for testing. It isn't. In professional circles there are lots of testing situations where ABX isn't considered the best method to test a hypothesis. Look it up sometime.

When someone posts a comment in an audio forum, I assume that, unless otherwise stated or implied, that they are speaking about audio and psychoacoustics, and not about science generally. Your use of the term "professional circles" in the context of this thread is so general that it appears to be a genuine strawman - intentional or not.

So then, why are you speaking in such general terms? Are you not aware that this is an audio forum? Although you chose to speak in generalities, it seems appropriate to ask you to please elucidate how those poorly defined generalities about scientific testing relate to ABX testing for sonic differences in psychoacoustics?

Also, you seem to be telling us that you don't understand that at least in psychoacoustics, scientists in the field like Dr.Floyd Toole are the experts and do not have to hire others to do ABX testing - because they are the experts? (Of course, I would assume that Floyd consults with his peers and other experts in related fields - all of the many scientists I have worked with or studied under do that. They read, evaluate, and criticize each others work and consult with each other.)

Only on forums??? Give me a break! Another strawman - you seem to be an expert at constructing them. :cool: Yes, at this forum - with a good number of references to publications elsewhere that support the efficacy of ABX testing for audio. And it is not a "generic" standard - it is a specific one. Sheesh! :facepalm:

We are discussing the testing methods used by professionals in the field of psychoacoustics - and the methods they develop and use can also be utilized by curious non-experts to help eliminate sighted bias in auditory testing. Testing and reporting results by scientists is "the gold standard" and testing by audiophiles is fascinating and fun - and appears to be an eye-opening experience as reported by many here and elsewhere who have tried it.
 

Xulonn

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Please take 10 seconds to name for us a scientific domain where something other than double-blind testing is used to establish whether humans can tell a difference between two non-visual external stimuli. Wine and gastronomy are not acceptable answers.

Thanks in advance for your very valuable time

Well said! I think we are on the same page. Your short comment reflects the essence of my much longer one.
 

solderdude

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Amir can easily remeasure with the chassis connected or disconnected and see if the crap goes away. (if he still has it and is curious enough)

As there is no mains coming into the DAC it is not really a safety issue when the chassis is 'floating'.
Most likely Vincent is no complete idiot and used a 1M and possiblly a small coupling cap in the disconnected mode.

Even when he, and others, have to live of building/selling these devices the price is still ... well ... on the high(end) side.

I would not dare to charge those prices but obviously he has a market and paying customers who are really happy.
He must be doing something 'right' as he can live with it and probably even set up a nice pension at the same time.
Those paying large amounts of money are not intimidated by ASR and will believe their 'guru' so probably only very little damage is done to TotalDac.
 

daftcombo

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As for the ground loop; if you can't add an isolator to your circuit for a 14,000 USD product, then how about you shut the hell up? (uncouth mode; engage)

Not only you put 14.000$ on the table but you get committed in buying extra stuff to get it to work properly (as least you hope so), and anyway you still end up rebuked for using it the wrong way (send 44.1 kHz files instead of 96 kHz and so on...)..
 

THW

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When someone posts a comment in an audio forum, I assume that, unless otherwise stated or implied, that they are speaking about audio and psychoacoustics, and not about science generally. Your use of the term "professional circles" in the context of this thread is so general that it appears to be a genuine strawman - intentional or not.

So then, why are you speaking in such general terms? Are you not aware that this is an audio forum? Although you chose to speak in generalities, it seems appropriate to ask you to please elucidate how those poorly defined generalities about scientific testing relate to ABX testing for sonic differences in psychoacoustics?

Also, you seem to be telling us that you don't understand that at least in psychoacoustics, scientists in the field like Dr.Floyd Toole are the experts and do not have to hire others to do ABX testing - because they are the experts? (Of course, I would assume that Floyd consults with his peers and other experts in related fields - all of the many scientists I have worked with or studied under do that. They read, evaluate, and criticize each others work and consult with each other.)

Only on forums??? Give me a break! Another strawman - you seem to be an expert at constructing them. :cool: Yes, at this forum - with a good number of references to publications elsewhere that support the efficacy of ABX testing for audio. And it is not a "generic" standard - it is a specific one. Sheesh! :facepalm:

We are discussing the testing methods used by professionals in the field of psychoacoustics - and the methods they develop and use can also be utilized by curious non-experts to help eliminate sighted bias in auditory testing. Testing and reporting results by scientists is "the gold standard" and testing by audiophiles is fascinating and fun - and appears to be an eye-opening experience as reported by many here and elsewhere who have tried it.

I think the entire point of that comment is to use that to (dishonestly) deconstruct the usefulness of double blinding when it has been proven data obtained from double blind tests is actually useful
 

Xulonn

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Another BS response. AES is not a serious organization, sorry.
And again the claim was that ABX it THE research gold standard. Please prove that claim. Your anecdotal experience (whatever it is) doesn't do that.
Whoa! That post certainly reveals a lot - asking someone to "prove" an "opinion"?

The opinion of ABX being the "gold standard" in audio listening tests is simply that - an opinion. However, that opinion is widely supported by pragmatists in the field who are actually interested in knowing whether or not something is actually audible. And the denial of it is almost exclusively voiced as whining, crying, words of outrage, etc. by either those who sell audio snake oil, or those who buy into it.

Snake Oil 3.jpg
 

bozoc

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I have participated in several well-conducted ABX-style tests. They are neither hard nor stressful. I suspect they only become stressful when you are so desirous of a particular outcome that you perceive yourself to be under pressure to “achieve” the result that, for one reason or another, matters so much to you.

Were the listeners trained? What kind of measures were taken to prevent false positives and false negatives? Did take into account your own biases? Did you take into account that you maybe affected by nocebo? Did you fill out any questionnaires?
Do you have data to support you faith based claims? The level of effort in mental gymnasts and rhetoric you provide would be better spent actually reading few AES papers for stares, hopefully then you would not write stuff like this.


In professional circles, ABX is widely regarded as being the gold standard of test methodologies when you need to compare a new process or method with an established approach. I really do not see why audio amateurs bear such a grudge to this reliable and proven method.
Actually I do see why, and it's rather sad.
Why do you always have the need to provide silly conjectures as in X must do Y because they are biased and/or want money. It just useless and irrelevant for everybody that wants to get to the bottom of things.
 

Dialectic

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Please note that hardcore subjectivists are allowed to continue posting here at ASR (and thank goodness for that).

Those of us on the other side of these little debates are not allowed to post to SBAF, WBF, Audiostream comments, etc. I'm glad there's one forum where there can be genuine discussion of these matters.
 

Juhazi

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The statistical problem with almost all published listening tests is small number of subjects (n). Significance is low. In medicine and social sciences nobody would even give a glance at those "studies"
 
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daftcombo

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