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Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

RayDunzl

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Let me add my 1/424th to this discussion:

 
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daftcombo

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There is no "Amir method." It is either what is accepted by formal audio research and engineering or voodoo audio mythology created by audiophiles with zero verification of validity of what they do.

We, the scientific and engineering group in the industry and researched have arrived at above conclusion through hard work and verification. It is not some random approach you can dismiss. Let me give you an example that is relevant here.

When I was at Microsoft, we were developing our next generation *lossy* audio codec (WMA Pro). We had a mode in the encoder where you could set the quality as the priority and the codec would then choose the (variable) bit rate to achieve that. At the highest level, the quality could be set to max which by definition had to be transparent. To make sure we achieved this, we decided to leverage the large group of audiophiles at Microsoft in a blind test.

The files were encoded, achieving roughly 2:1 compression ratio. In other words, lots and lots of data was thrown away (in a psychoacoustically aware method of course). To my disappointment, the audiophile group severely underperformed our codec test team. They simply could not hear any artifacts.

I was busy so I had not take the test myself. My codec team manager came to my office and ask me if I could run the test. I said I did not have time. Seeing how badly he needed the results, I told him to wait and I pulled up a couple of samples. In an instant, not only could I tell the difference, but identified exact moment in the track where the difference existed. The team was very happy as they went and found the problem that caused the fidelity loss in those segments.

The conclusion is certain: audiophiles like you state love to think they have great ears. But when it comes to non-linear artifacts (as opposed to simple frequency response changes and such), they have no better ability than the general public. Which is to say, their ability is quite poor compared to trained listeners.

Fact is that people buy flawed audio products because they are totally deaf to their artifacts. This proves their inability to be critical listeners.

Faced with above, the convenient counter is: "oh, I prefer the distortions." Who says? If you can't hear the distortions, you certainly can't prefer them. What's more this theory has never been proven to be true using controlled tests. I have tested countless flawed products and as I observe in this review, the defects are hard to hear. But if you do hear them, they are unpleasant.

So please, don't try to fight facts and science with just word arguments. I have the data and science on my side plus decades of testing hypothesis like yours. There is no there there. Audiophiles need to wake up and get out of their illusions of audio. Reality is a cold, hard place for them to be sure. But it is also liberating when you can prove something, than claim it!

Can we like a post twice?
 
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amirm

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Having taken the decision to produce a NOS design there are many other technical challenges, linearity being one. It has already been noted that the design delivers linearity performance that is usually beyond the reach of this type of DAC.
We have experience with other R2R DACs producing excellent linearity. Here is Soekris dac1421 linearity at price point of $1,000 (red trace):

index.php


And totaldac d1-six from the review:

index.php


As you see, they are almost identical even though the Soekris costs a fraction of d1-six.
 

garbulky

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Audiophiles need to wake up and get out of their illusions of audio. Reality is a cold, hard place for them to be sure. But it is also liberating when you can prove something, than claim it!
The illusion is that the illusion is bad and needs to be cut out.
The reality is that for listening you don't really need the high performance dacs. One's ear doesn't need 120 db snr for great music listening let alone 80 db. Its use is pointless. Same goes for linearity - I'm not sure how that makes any difference whatsoever in any kind of listening for almost all modern dacs out there. But yet there's huge emphasis on these values simply because they are measurable and a way to "differentiate" dacs. Measurements of that type aren't really useful for people's music listening. It's as useful as saying this orange is more orange even though it looks exactly just as orange.

Just like taste is influenced by a whole lot of things like not related to chemicals on tastebuds like a pretty plate, so is audio. Instead of saying that we need to cut through that, I think it is an important part of it. We shouldn't ignore it or discard it to "get to the truth". The truth is that shiny things look and sound better to people and that's important :) Think if there was some food critic saying that an amazing dish should not be dressed up but simply eaten pureed because objectively it's the same taste. Well it's not because prettiness influences perception (and this is not really a bad thing).

Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't account for them either. It would be good to know the difference between a subjective and objective assessment so people can make good decisions. But the subjective part is important because that's how people use and perceive the gear. It's not fakery, it's how we experience.
 
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amirm

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The truth is that shiny things look and sound better to people and that's important :)
For something to be "true" it needs to be lasting. Impressions on audio products other than their sound are not lasting. Going by a bullet list of mythical audiophile bullet list on a website like Totaldac will wear off with time. Because it is not real or topical when you listen later. This is why high-end audiophiles keep upgrading and tweaking. They need that imaginary "high" because they reality is not there to back that sensation.

Now if they truly "sound better" then that is factual and won't wear off like a mirage.

Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't account for them either. It would be good to know the difference between a subjective and objective assessment so people can make good decisions. But the subjective part is important because that's how people use and perceive the gear. It's not fakery, it's how we experience.
Subjective if expressed to convince others, better be as provable and valid as measurements. The notion that we should just accept it because it is "subjective" runs again, counter to audio science and proper engineering. We cannot live in a made-up world of science. It has to be grounded in reality as to have any level of trustworthiness.

That aside, I did listen and at times hear objectionable artifacts. And those artifacts were correlated with measurements. Now what?
 

graz_lag

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For something to be "true" it needs to be lasting. Impressions on audio products other than their sound are not lasting. Going by a bullet list of mythical audiophile bullet list on a website like Totaldac will wear off with time. Because it is not real or topical when you listen later. This is why high-end audiophiles keep upgrading and tweaking. They need that imaginary "high" because they reality is not there to back that sensation.

Now if they truly "sound better" then that is factual and won't wear off like a mirage.


Subjective if expressed to convince others, better be as provable and valid as measurements. The notion that we should just accept it because it is "subjective" runs again, counter to audio science and proper engineering. We cannot live in a made-up world of science. It has to be grounded in reality as to have any level of trustworthiness.

That aside, I did listen and at times hear objectionable artifacts. And those artifacts were correlated with measurements. Now what?

Indeed, if sticking $10,000 bills to my DAC makes it sound better, I'll continue to do it. :p
 

JJB70

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One of the (many) problems with this is that it doesn't even offer premium build quality and industrial design for 13,000 euros. I love Accuphase, now i appreciate Accuphase is almost like hifi for the poverty stricken compared with this but I would not justify Accuphase on SQ, what I would justify it on is the phenomenonal build and attention to detail. There is none of that with this DAC.
 

garbulky

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That aside, I did listen and at times hear objectionable artifacts. And those artifacts were correlated with measurements. Now what?
Then that's important and useful information because that would be reflected in people's listening.
 

Haskil

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A good DAC must be linear, have a good signal-to-noise ratio (especially for those who have speakers HR horn),
have low distortion rates and handle 0dB well to avoid short digital clipping.

We find it for a little less than 100 dollars or euros. Example Topping D 10 ... I heard a beautiful chain powered by a DAC Oelbach 50 euros ...

If you want to connect many digital sources on - USB, optical, coaxial, BNC, XLR .. -,
if you want to adjust the volume with, that the DAC also has a good headphone amp, it embarks a DSP allowing some parametric corrections, a crossfeld for listening to headphones approaching that with speakers, the possibility of reversing the phase on a channel (some CDs have an out of phase channel: Iberia Isaac Albenir by Alicia Larrocha at EMI-Warner, for example),
to choose several filters ... or to operate in NOS then it becomes a converter digital preamplifier ...
It must then be more expensive: 900-1000 euros. And for this price, high, it requires the manufacturer to update the firmware and drivers and that the manufacturing is durable and repairable.

Listening? Everyone's opinion: I hear very little difference between DACS whatever the price and technology ...
I'm using the one in my Tact 2.2X digital preamplifier, the ones on my CD and SACD decks when I'm using an analog preamplifier and the one in the preamplifier part of my built-in HC Yamaha Adventage 3010 which is excellent, really excellent in stereo ...

The real problems in stereo are the speakers and their marriage with the acoustics of the room ...
Sorry for my cooking English.
 

FredYves

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Of course it was clear to me you would have learned something new, that was the reason for which I mentioned the placebo factor, Ha Ha Ha :D

Pls. pls. scroll back on page #1 and go thru Amir' conclusions for both Listening Tests & Final Conclusions.
Of course you did it already, but pls. do it one more time.
Everything is very well explained there.

There is a serious discussion here about the measurements of TotalDac which obviously look bad. I have another perception hearing the product, and I don’t know how many people contributing here ever listen to TotalDac. I must admit that ASR’s measurements and the emotions Vincent is putting in his answers are not so encouraging.

When it comes to myself, I appreciate your jokes Graz. Your systematic misunderstanding of what I write is very funny indeed. But that’s not important. I am sure you have good time listening to music through your different systems you are detailing in your signature. I am happy to read you today on a French forum where you say you want to invest between 5k€ and 8k€ on a used DAC to replace the Topping DX7S you have. I wish you to find what suits you best and I trust you will look at measurements and also listen to the music. On my side, the only thing which matters is as well to enjoy the music and I am eager to discover new things thanks to Amirm.
 
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KSTR

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NOS DACs have an output spectrum that contains images at high levels, since there is no filter to attenuate them. Proponents would argue that those images are outside the bandwidth of our hearing so they are of no audible consequence (setting aside their potential to generate intermodulation later in the chain with artefacts back in the audible range).
[...]
There looks to be technical merit in the design, within the realms of what is possible with a NOS architecture. I wouldn't buy one, but that isn't to say that the designer hasn't made every effort to the do the best job that can be done with that approach.
Full ack.
Basically, its only technical fault is the lack of at least a moderate analog low-pass filter (or a seperate one for each sampling frequency) -- with a bit of foresight the designed should have anticipated the shitstorms and implement this filter, perhaps bypassable, to obtain good standard type measurements.
OK, the aesthetics and build quality may be issues for some that increase the price/performance ratio beyond acceptable.

But then again, even "uber-companies" like Audio Precision got away many many years with providing a total f*cked up control software for their analyzers (the whole System Two range), buggy as hell and hacked-up appearance and all (which nothing but wastes user time and money). And yet they get applauded for word-class performance (the hardware sure is excellent, but the software isn't -- except for the latest 5x5 models). Isn't that unfair?
 

graz_lag

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There is a serious discussion here about the measurements of TotalDac which obviously look bad. I have another perception hearing the product, and I don’t know how many people contributing here ever listen to TotalDac. I must admit that ASR’s measurements and the emotions Vincent is putting in his answers are not so encouraging.

When it comes to myself, I appreciate your jokes Graz. Your systematic misunderstanding of what I write is very funny indeed. But that’s not important. I am sure you have good time listening to music through your different systems you are detailing in your signature. I am happy to read you today on a French forum where you say you want to invest between 5k and 8k on an used DAC to replace the Topping DX7S you have. I wish you to find what suits you best and I trust you will look at measurements and also listen to the music. On my side, the only thing which matters is as well to enjoy the music and I am eager to discover new things thanks to Amirm.

:p The new DAC, which I was trying to source out from the second-hand market, is not to replace my Topping DX7s of which I am happy and do not have any plan to replace ... In fact I did not say the 8K DAC was going to replace it ...

@Thomas savage ... Just a bit out of topic ...
We're setting up in my company a lounge room where we receive our customers, of whom many are from China. They love the French' design and technology, so we make them happy on that by filling the lounge with French items, from champagne to beer via Focal speakers & Devialet electronics ...
That's the reason for which I was (and still) looking for a French made D/A converter, with a background of reputation and technical content consistent with the rest of the lounge set up. But I have a budget to meet, in the low end as we cannot display a cheapy item with a fancy French name and a black Made in China back label, as well as in the high end.
@FredYves Pls. PM me with any suggestion, it would be highly appreciated !
 
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kn0ppers

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KSTR, what you are missing is, to the "uber-company" Audio Precision products there probably were limited alternatives in a similar price region, that probably weren't much better regarding usability. For Audio DACs, there is a flood of alternatives covering all price regions.

I don't know what you are trying to say or add to the discussion by this flawed comparison?

Edit: I read your post earlier, you owned some of those systems and probably were not satisfied, which in turn means you maybe just wanted to bash on Audio Precision a little bit. I mean they might deserve it, but this comparison just adds no value to this discussion whatsoever.
 

daftcombo

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We're setting up in my company a lounge room where we receive our customers, of whom many are from China. They love the French' design and technology, so we make them happy on that by filling the lounge with French items, from champagne to beer via Focal speakers & Devialet electronics ...
That's the reason for which I was (and still) looking for a French made D/A converter, with a background of reputation and technical content consistent with the rest of the lounge set up.

Audiophonics are french and make decent DACs for 1/100 the price.
 

daftcombo

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I know their website, thank you so much, but everything is imported from China ...
Mostly, but they also make their own DACs.

I have this one, which also has a decent headphones amp:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/fr/dac-sans-volume/audiophonics-u-sabre-desktop-k2m-dac-ampli-casque-24bit96khz-sa9023-es9018-p-11911.html?search_query=u sabre&fast_search=fs

I don't know of measurements but it sounds fine to me. It sounds exactly the same as Topping D10 (same chip), Scarlett 2i4, Apogee Duet 2, Nad D1050... on my speakers.

It has the best heavy volume knob I ever saw/felt! (for the headphones section)
 
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daftcombo

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