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Review and Measurements of Topping D90 4499DAC

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WolfX-700

WolfX-700

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Much better. Is it first batch retail version?

The manufacturer says yes! This is also the reason for the delay (reassured, my friend bought the first retail version. It will be sent to me for measurement upon arrival)
 

bequietjk

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You silly silly guys, the party has only just started. More manufacturers finally started seeing people want high performing devices, AMP developments are moving at lighting pace, AKM just released the 4499 which is due to likely see amazing renditions from other DAC makers, THX modules seem to now slowly be trickling into other devices. Cool new streamers, and things like that.

You're leaving at the worst time ;P


animated_1558227900793.gif
 

Alabaster

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Hi all,
I have just read the whole conversation but I am not deep in these terms and graphs, so still not clear.... Can you please advise if there would be an audible difference between the D70 and D90 if I use it only as a DAC in my chain? The D90 is +40% the price of a D70...
Thx!
(Tannoy Revolution XT8F + Electrocompaniet ECI-4)
 

Veri

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Hi all,
I have just read the whole conversation but I am not deep in these terms and graphs, so still not clear.... Can you please advise if there would be an audible difference between the D70 and D90 if I use it only as a DAC in my chain? The D90 is +40% the price of a D70...
Thx!
(Tannoy Revolution XT8F + Electrocompaniet ECI-4)
Hard to say, in reality it is unlikely there is an audible difference. The D90 is the current state of the art flagship with AK4499 DAC, if you buy it you're buying it to own the latest and best. If that is worth +40% that is up to you. Imo, it's arguably better to get a D70 used or new, and wait for the inevitable response from ESS Sabre to the AK4499, or whatever AKM will come up next in the coming years (AK45-- series?), and just enjoy the D70.

There will always be new stuff that will be that tiny bit better. One can't upgrade two times a year lol. I mean I hope no one here does this :p
 

Spocko

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It's a non-issue...
So if it's a non-issue (meaning not audible), then this measure is more to test signal tolerances and design expertise, but not a useful measure for the music listener?
EDIT: I found this incredibly informative ASR post about DAC linearity measurement and its realistic effects on audibility. After reading it, I was able to put these linearity measurements into perspective. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-important-is-dac-linearity.7878/ . Arguably, for a typical loudspeaker system, it appears that linearity problems occurring below -110 dB is not audible, but could always be improved for an additional cost in both time (to research the matter) and money (extra labor means extra $$). I would assume that when the DX9Pro is released, all these linearity issues would be resolved, but now the you are paying for engineering perfection without real world improvement to your music listening experience - really pride of ownership of a well engineered product. Am I on the right track here?
 
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Spocko

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This is happens when there are only 2 clocks instead of 3 like Dx7Pro, when that clocks are too far away of AK4499 and when the rectifier diodes are just near the ckocks and spread out all of the high frequency garbage. Anyway, a mediocre design in a too small chassis.
But isn't the DX7Pro in an identical chassis, so I assume this issue is unique to AK4499 build requirements? I can't imagine that Topping would purposely abandon its design principles learned during the development of the DX7Pro if it could be implemented here whenever applicable.
 

JohnYang1997

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This is happens when there are only 2 clocks instead of 3 like Dx7Pro, when that clocks are too far away of AK4499 and when the rectifier diodes are just near the ckocks and spread out all of the high frequency garbage. Anyway, a mediocre design in a too small chassis.
This makes no sense.
1, 9038pro is very different from ak4499. Namely there's no asrc in ak4499. You cannot directly compare designs using two different dacs.
2, The logic is flawed, if the design of clock is bad, then why usb is much better than toslink/coax? The issue is that usb is asynchronous so the jitter is mainly due to the dac itself. And the aes is also depending on the transformer and toslink also has something else. I'm not saying usb cannot be optimized further but the actual issue is toslink and aes which are independent of an issue than usb jitter.
3, how the heck that rectifier diodes would spread out high frequency content. If the same design layout is used with 9038pro there would be no issue. It's just that 4499 is new the implementation needs refinements.
4, The reference evaluation board from akm also has bad jitter and performance is actually worse in many way than d90. I would say, wait and see when we can have a better implementation of ak4499 than d90. Remember, gustard completely fked that up being much worse than their 9038pro design. D90 at least has better sinad than dx7pro.
 

IVX

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I guarantee it in the SINAD Over Time measurement about 50 minutes. The value fluctuates within 1db(similar to Topping D50s))
Can I ask you a simple question, why you guys like to express distortions in SINAD but not in THD+N? At levels less than -60db the difference is negligible.
APx500 quote:
SINAD is an abbreviation for SIgnal-to-Noise And Distortion. It is a measure of audio quality used in low signal-to-noise ratio situations such as radio communications systems. SINAD is usually performed with a stimulus signal of 400 Hz or 1 kHz.

SINAD is defined as the ratio of the total signal (desired signal plus the sum of all distortion and noise components) to the sum of all distortion and noise components. SINAD can never be less than 1, and is always positive when expressed in dB. SINAD is the reciprocal of THD+N, and can be converted to ENOB.
 

amirm

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Can I ask you a simple question, why you guys like to express distortions in SINAD but not in THD+N? At levels less than -60db the difference is negligible.
The way AP computes SINAD is exactly the same as THD+N. Express THD+N in dB and then change the sign and you get SINAD. It is just math and not a different measurement. It is nicer because bigger means better. :)
 

Veri

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So if it's a non-issue (meaning not audible), then this measure is more to test signal tolerances and design expertise, but not a useful measure for the music listener?
EDIT: I found this incredibly informative ASR post about DAC linearity measurement and its realistic effects on audibility. After reading it, I was able to put these linearity measurements into perspective. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-important-is-dac-linearity.7878/ . Arguably, for a typical loudspeaker system, it appears that linearity problems occurring below -110 dB is not audible, but could always be improved for an additional cost in both time (to research the matter) and money (extra labor means extra $$). I would assume that when the DX9Pro is released, all these linearity issues would be resolved, but now the you are paying for engineering perfection without real world improvement to your music listening experience - really pride of ownership of a well engineered product. Am I on the right track here?
Yes. It is a measurement that shows how perfect the linearity is but you're not going to hear the difference between 18.5 bits and 20 bits linearity.. :) not when SINAD and multitone are just about state of the art.
 

Snafu

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In Europe price is US$700+taxes ~ 70% of Okto research dac (and it's only ~€300 more to get Okto)

Topping sure is stepping on big toes with that price and will face harsh competition.

Decisions... :eek:
 

Alabaster

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Hard to say, in reality it is unlikely there is an audible difference. The D90 is the current state of the art flagship with AK4499 DAC, if you buy it you're buying it to own the latest and best. If that is worth +40% that is up to you. Imo, it's arguably better to get a D70 used or new, and wait for the inevitable response from ESS Sabre to the AK4499, or whatever AKM will come up next in the coming years (AK45-- series?), and just enjoy the D70.

There will always be new stuff that will be that tiny bit better. One can't upgrade two times a year lol. I mean I hope no one here does this :p


And do you think D70 has an advantage because of the dual chip implemention over the single construction of D90?
 
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