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Review and Measurements of Topping D50 DAC

dwalme

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This topic is starting to heat up. This whole section of the forum is all about measurements. Perhaps Amir can do some on this DAC similar to what was posted by the author of HQP for the Pro-ject S2 dac (PCM vs DSD).

Many people are choosing this product over lower cost models that measure "good enough" where many claim you can't hear a difference between the better measuring device and the not as good device. Looks like many on this forum strive to get the best measuring device for their money (and I guess hope it sounds good too - or have blind faith that if it measures well then it will sound good too).

Is it not in the spirit of this forum to find out any scientific performance difference between the ways in which a product can function (ie 44.1khz PCM vs upsampled DSD512).

It seems members get upset if DSD512 measures better at the outputs. Why? Because you believe it's not possible for a DAC chip to perform differently when fed different input signals? If 44.1khz pcm or DSD512 measures better then at least we know. No difference between measuring USB vs SPDIF or measuring different power supplies (LPS, Switcher, USB). All these things can impact performance and no matter how small the difference knowing allows us to make informed decisions on which products to choose and which ways we choose to use them.

I welcome the dialog and hope Amir can find some time in the backlog of measurements of products to do a quick run down between 44.1khz PCM and DSD512. I'd like to see it on the D50. But we already have some data of the Pro-ject S2 so confirming or disputing the posted data there would be great.

Regardless of the outcomes we all have the right to use our products how we choose. So no one should get mad at you on the internet if you want to send your 44.1khz pcm direct or upsampled DSD512 to your DAC. If you find yourself telling others what they should do without at least backing it up with some measurements then you are probably in the wrong.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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His postings have nothing reliable about subjective listening tests. So please don't defer to him on what sounds good or doesn't, lest you can point to controlled listening tests he has performed.
Forgive me, but I believe he does more that post listening tests. Are you familiar with his CV?
 

Veri

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It seems members get upset if DSD512 measures better at the outputs. Why? Because you believe it's not possible for a DAC chip to perform differently when fed different input signals? If 44.1khz pcm or DSD512 measures better then at least we know.

I for one do not think this is something that is entirely necessary for amir to look into, because the outcome will be negligible in differences. In past tests, of a way higher degree of measurable differences in performance, even then the conclusion is often "but it's unlikely anyone will hear a difference". If you think that a slight lower third harmonic or something like that, is in fact audible, you are giving yourself too much credit.

Comparing two devices in performance, is highly useful information. Trying every filter and sample rate for a device? Highly doubtful if valuable.
 

Thomas savage

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This topic is starting to heat up. This whole section of the forum is all about measurements. Perhaps Amir can do some on this DAC similar to what was posted by the author of HQP for the Pro-ject S2 dac (PCM vs DSD).

Many people are choosing this product over lower cost models that measure "good enough" where many claim you can't hear a difference between the better measuring device and the not as good device. Looks like many on this forum strive to get the best measuring device for their money (and I guess hope it sounds good too - or have blind faith that if it measures well then it will sound good too).

Is it not in the spirit of this forum to find out any scientific performance difference between the ways in which a product can function (ie 44.1khz PCM vs upsampled DSD512).

It seems members get upset if DSD512 measures better at the outputs. Why? Because you believe it's not possible for a DAC chip to perform differently when fed different input signals? If 44.1khz pcm or DSD512 measures better then at least we know. No difference between measuring USB vs SPDIF or measuring different power supplies (LPS, Switcher, USB). All these things can impact performance and no matter how small the difference knowing allows us to make informed decisions on which products to choose and which ways we choose to use them.

I welcome the dialog and hope Amir can find some time in the backlog of measurements of products to do a quick run down between 44.1khz PCM and DSD512. I'd like to see it on the D50. But we already have some data of the Pro-ject S2 so confirming or disputing the posted data there would be great.

Regardless of the outcomes we all have the right to use our products how we choose. So no one should get mad at you on the internet if you want to send your 44.1khz pcm direct or upsampled DSD512 to your DAC. If you find yourself telling others what they should do without at least backing it up with some measurements then you are probably in the wrong.
No one here should get mad about someone’s preference, if one was to put forth that preference as a truism then we require supporting evidence.
 

Veri

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Here's an idea for a low-cost power supply, instead of paying 90+ usd/eur equivalent of a linear power supply, couldn't I just use something like this with my recharbable batteries at home? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076FMLM87/ (I'm guessing it wouldn't be optimal but still, would be quite cheap lol).

Qtslx0j.jpg
 

Wombat

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This topic is starting to heat up. This whole section of the forum is all about measurements. Perhaps Amir can do some on this DAC similar to what was posted by the author of HQP for the Pro-ject S2 dac (PCM vs DSD).

Many people are choosing this product over lower cost models that measure "good enough" where many claim you can't hear a difference between the better measuring device and the not as good device. Looks like many on this forum strive to get the best measuring device for their money (and I guess hope it sounds good too - or have blind faith that if it measures well then it will sound good too).

Is it not in the spirit of this forum to find out any scientific performance difference between the ways in which a product can function (ie 44.1khz PCM vs upsampled DSD512).

It seems members get upset if DSD512 measures better at the outputs. Why? Because you believe it's not possible for a DAC chip to perform differently when fed different input signals? If 44.1khz pcm or DSD512 measures better then at least we know. No difference between measuring USB vs SPDIF or measuring different power supplies (LPS, Switcher, USB). All these things can impact performance and no matter how small the difference knowing allows us to make informed decisions on which products to choose and which ways we choose to use them.

I welcome the dialog and hope Amir can find some time in the backlog of measurements of products to do a quick run down between 44.1khz PCM and DSD512. I'd like to see it on the D50. But we already have some data of the Pro-ject S2 so confirming or disputing the posted data there would be great.

Regardless of the outcomes we all have the right to use our products how we choose. So no one should get mad at you on the internet if you want to send your 44.1khz pcm direct or upsampled DSD512 to your DAC. If you find yourself telling others what they should do without at least backing it up with some measurements then you are probably in the wrong.


'It is not in the spirit of this forum to find out any scientific performance difference between the ways in which a product can function ........'. Really?? :confused:
 
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mindbomb

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It is not accepted here.

I have heard of that phenomenon as well. DSD interacts with the dac hardware such that there is measurably better performance in a CCIF IMD test apparently.
 
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amirm

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Forgive me, but I believe he does more that post listening tests. Are you familiar with his CV?
I am not but I assume from his work that he has very good signal processing experience. That unfortunately does not proffer him any advantage in predicting audibility of resampling, nor it is a substitute for any controlled listening tests. The measurement data posted does not indicate audible differences either.
 

skrekk

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The measurement data posted does not indicate audible differences either.
I'm increasingly skeptical when claims are made that there are audible differences in this area, not just due to the difficulty of setting up a proper blind A/B test but also because on any given piece of equipment the claims about the SQ and character are all over the map. And even when differences can be detected by ear I think there's a lot of misattribution as to their cause.
 
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amirm

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I'm increasingly skeptical when claims are made that there are audible differences in this area, not just due to the difficulty of setting up a proper blind A/B test but also because on any given piece of equipment the claims about the SQ and character are all over the map. And even when differences can be detected by ear I think there's a lot of misattribution as to their cause.
The biggest issue we face is that we automatically think "bigger is better." :) DSD512 sounds more impressive than 44.1. In uncontrolled testing, this creates huge amount of bias.

Also super important is that resampling/signal processing algorithms can change level. I was testing DSD to PCM conversion done offline versus in real-time in Roon. I expected them to sound the same but the ones in Roon sounded a lot better! I dig in and find out that Roon was performing a level correction and was adding 6 dB of gain. That made the converted versions sound louder. I adjusted that down to 4 dB to match the other conversion and the difference completely vanished!

Indeed it is challenging to perform such signal processing while maintaining perfect level. The requirement for headroom may lower volume or algorithm itself/lack of precision in math can change levels the other way around. Such controlled tests must start with a level check on the output of the DAC or all bets are off.
 

Aweicc

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The reason why I am now totally uninterested in any subjective reviews of different DACs and H-amps is when out of boredom, I compared my main setup, Chord 2Qute + Violectric V281, with a cheap 100 dollar Micca OriGen G2 using the same headphone, a Audioquest NightHawk, and can’t hear the difference when volume matched.
 

Wombat

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The reason why I am now totally uninterested in any subjective reviews of different DACs and H-amps is when out of boredom, I compared my main setup, Chord 2Qute + Violectric V281, with a cheap 100 dollar Micca OriGen G2 using the same headphone, a Audioquest NightHawk, and can’t hear the difference when volume matched.

Your 'likes' at present run 2:1 vs your posts. Keep it up. Keep us on our toes. :eek: I think I just upped the ratio.:rolleyes:
 
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Krunok

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Speakers only turn an electrical signal into an acoustic one. Look further upstream.

Only?!? Well, they do turn electrical signal into an acoustic wave but they do that in a quite non-linear way which can easily cause intermodulation distortion mentioned in that article.
The same goes for power amplifiers and for the other signal processing elements, but speakers are the element that causes the most distortion in that chain, specifically because of the nature of the process "only" they do.
 

Krunok

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The reason why I am now totally uninterested in any subjective reviews of different DACs and H-amps is when out of boredom, I compared my main setup, Chord 2Qute + Violectric V281, with a cheap 100 dollar Micca OriGen G2 using the same headphone, a Audioquest NightHawk, and can’t hear the difference when volume matched.

I believe this to be so true that it has to be repeated once more. :)
 

Wombat

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Only?!? Well, they do turn electrical signal into an acoustic wave but they do that in a quite non-linear way which can easily cause intermodulation distortion mentioned in that article.
The same goes for power amplifiers and for the other signal processing elements, but speakers are the element that causes the most distortion in that chain, specifically because of the nature of the process "only" they do.

If the input to the loudspeaker changes, the loud speaker, within its capability, will follow. It will not enhance.
 

Krunok

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If the input to the loudspeaker changes, the loud speaker, within its capability, will follow. It will not enhance.

Exactly. It will follow within it's capability. And since the membrane has some mass it will suffer inertia effects. Also, as it has finite stiffness it will not retain it's shape while moving. All of that is causing different kinds of distortions. Harmonic distortions of a premium speaker are in the range of 0.5-2%, intermodulation distortions are typically even higher. Compare that to the distiortion figures of good amplifier and you will see what I mean. With today's technology distortions of modern DACs don't even deserve "honorable mention". :)
 

Krunok

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Btw, foobar has a nicely done extension with which you can perform blind tests between various music files in a quite objective way. Many of you might be surprised how difficult may be to reliably notice difference between 320kbps mp3 and 16/44.1 flac files.

https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx

Once again, if you will be doing your own AB files for comparison make sure that sound level is absolutely equally adjusted otherwise you won't be able to do objective comparison.
 

Technobrakes

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Finally it has arrived just giving its first run.
 

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rikm

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good morning all, have just been reading thru this thread and see that the D50 is working for some with linux, and the specs and test results look good, but when I borrowed one and looked at how it was appearing, the XMOS chip does not show and it seems [from the /proc/asound output] to use DoP for DSD playback...


thanks and any thoughts welcome,


rikm


---

Card hw:1 'D50'/'Topping D50 at usb-0000:00:14.0-4.1, high speed'
Mixer name : 'USB Mixer'
Components : 'USB152a:8750'
Controls : 6
Simple ctrls : 3
 
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