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Review and Measurements of Topping D50 DAC

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amirm

amirm

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Tidal can do WASAPI exclusive mode in which the above setting does not apply.
Oh, I did not know this. I deleted their app after installing since it was screwing around too much. :)

In that case, if you don't mind it having full control of the DAC (i.e. no other sounds getting to it from Windows), then selecting WASAPI is best.
 

chungjun

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The problem with Spotify on Windows it can only write to the default audio device, that does not provide the most direct path to the DAC as the digital stream goes through the system mixer and may get resampled or otherwise altered. You will still benefit from a better DAC but overall the situation with Spotify is less than ideal on Windows.

There have been long standing requests from the community for Spotify to add ASIO or WASAPI exclusive mode support that were largely ignored.
https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/ASIO-Output-support/idi-p/19519

They kind of half-assed the sound device selection in the latest versions but afaik it is still not using the exclusive mode and was reported to be unreliable:
https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/Allow-user-to-select-default-sound-device/idi-p/5351

What can you do about it?
1. Fidelify is a 3rd party Spotify client that supports WASAPI exclusive mode, but its stability and feature set is questionable (I haven't tried it).
2. Use Chromecast Audio through its optical output into your DAC. One caveat your DAC must be able to deal with incoming jitter as the CCA's optical output has been found to be quite jittery. Another aspect the CCA is using 256kbps AAC stream vs. 320kbps OGG on desktop, but given AAC is a better compression algorithm the quality should be equivalent if not better.
3. JRiver media center comes with a virtual WDM driver that can intercept/route audio with minimal changes to the JRiver engine, and then out to a WASAPI/ASIO device. I use this, this is still not a true direct path to the DAC but a big improvement over the default Windows sound device IMO, but ymmv, etc.
4. Virtual Audio Cable/ASIO Bridge out to an ASIO driver or maybe Asio4All, this is a similar concept to #3 but I've found it doesn't sound as good.


Thanks for sharing. I too hope someday (sooner the better) Spotify will look into expanding options for its subscribers. At the moment, from what I gathered it seems Spotify will stick to 320kbps OGG at best.

I've been using Equalify Pro (https://www.equalify.me/) with Spotify. Equalify Pro has an option in Setting to 'route' to a preferred sound device. Though I'm not sure if that's a true direct path to the DAC or that it truely 'bypass' Windows system mixer. I may be misguided but am under the impression that it does. [Edit 10/5/2018 - Equalify Pro support has clarified that Equalify Pro device routing function does not work like ASIO / WASAPI and still goes through whole Windows audio stack.] (see : https://community.equalify.me/t/device-changer-on-equalify-pro-its-like-asio-wasapi/1808)

[photo from Equalify Pro website]
ss2.png


How to verify the 'bypass' is true beats me... hopefully someone can chime in. As far as I can tell, I have had the chance to route / select different sound device / DAC and Equalify Pro seems to be doing the work (i.e route the output to a different sound device / DAC). But I don't know how much Windows system mixer is still involved in the chain. [Edit 10/5/2018 - Equalify Pro support has clarified that Equalify Pro device routing function does not work like ASIO / WASAPI and still goes through whole Windows audio stack.] (see : https://community.equalify.me/t/device-changer-on-equalify-pro-its-like-asio-wasapi/1808)
 
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gvl

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Lossy vs. lossless is a different subject. Going lossless is a massive investment, I can see why they can't do it given they are losing money even with the current model. That said I don't quite get why they can't support bit-perfect playback post OGG unfolding after all these years, very unlikely it is a technical issue. I came across Equalify, I don't think it does WASAPI exclusive mode (vs. WASAPI Shared) otherwise they would market it as such it being a commercial product, or should I call it a commercial hack?

Just for kicks, you can get a full-featured JRiver trial for 30 days, install it, enable the WDM driver and see if you can detect any differences comparing it to how you use Spotify now. I suspect we are limited to subjective experiments here.
 

chungjun

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Lossy vs. lossless is a different subject. Going lossless is a massive investment, I can see why they can't do it given they are losing money even with the current model. That said I don't quite get why they can't support bit-perfect playback post OGG unfolding after all these years, very unlikely it is a technical issue. I came across Equalify, I don't think it does WASAPI exclusive mode (vs. WASAPI Shared) otherwise they would market it as such it being a commercial product, or should I call it a commercial hack?

Just for kicks, you can get a full-featured JRiver trial for 30 days, install it, enable the WDM driver and see if you can detect any differences comparing it to how you use Spotify now. I suspect we are limited to subjective experiments here.

I'm a Spotify subscriber and I've come to accept the limitations of Spotify as a source (i.e. lossy 320kbps). And for that, with Equalify Pro, I rest my search for tweaks for true bypass (i.e. WASAPI exclusive vs shared) as I use Windows OS. For others, FLACs / CDs I would ordinary play with other players (e.g. foobar with ASIO etc.). I look forward for Spotify to offer more and there appears to be snippets of news they are considering - albeit possibly at a higher costs.

Anyway, may have derailed the thread a little... so back to the question:-

For a predominantly Spotify user on desktop, :-

Topping D50 (more than what a Spotify user could ask for) vs RME-ADI2 DAC (overkill?)
 

steveaudiop

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New member here but have been learning from here for a while. After 2 faked tracking numbers and 40 days waiting, finally got my D50 from aliexpress yesterday. I am using USB from windows 7 and /android OTG to D50 - to Vali2 or Magni3 - HD650. The music sources are Tidal master/HIFI or Flac ( 16/44.1 or 24/96) via foobar 2k/ASIO. It is too early to comment on the sound but it do sound good to me.
Just one question about D50 display. If it pairs with windows USB, it always displays 24 bit or 32 bit bit depth( depending on what I choose from USB driver configuration) even what I play is 16 bit /44.1 or 24/96 or 24/192). When I use it with my android OTG, it always display as 32 bit . on the other hand, the sample rate is displayed correctly ( 44.1/96/192 ). Is this expected or something wrong? please help here.
 

Stump909

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New member here but have been learning from here for a while. After 2 faked tracking numbers and 40 days waiting, finally got my D50 from aliexpress yesterday. I am using USB from windows 7 and /android OTG to D50 - to Vali2 or Magni3 - HD650. The music sources are Tidal master/HIFI or Flac ( 16/44.1 or 24/96) via foobar 2k/ASIO. It is too early to comment on the sound but it do sound good to me.
Just one question about D50 display. If it pairs with windows USB, it always displays 24 bit or 32 bit bit depth( depending on what I choose from USB driver configuration) even what I play is 16 bit /44.1 or 24/96 or 24/192). When I use it with my android OTG, it always display as 32 bit . on the other hand, the sample rate is displayed correctly ( 44.1/96/192 ). Is this expected or something wrong? please help here.

Are you sure you have ASIO set up correctly? If it's displaying the windows settings, then I doubt they're being bypassed.
 

steveaudiop

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index.php


here is where I configure the bit depth or format. If I choose this 2 channels 32 bit, then the display is always 32 bit .. foobar 2k/asio/waspi or tidal.. when I use android OTG, there is no where I configure this but D50 always display 32bits.
 

gvl

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As long as the sampling rate matches your material it is correct. Extra bits are filled with zeroes and do no harm. The XMOS driver control panel lets you select the bit-depth but you can leave it at 24. Android uses UAC device capability information to automatically select the output format and picks the widest supported, there is usually no way to change it unless you root the phone.
 

steveaudiop

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As long as the sampling rate matches your material it is correct. Extra bits are filled with zeroes and do no harm. The XMOS driver control panel lets you select the bit-depth but you can leave it at 24. Android uses UAC device capability information to automatically select the output format and picks the widest supported, there is usually no way to change it unless you root the phone.
Thank you!
 

rh0Negative

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The problem with Spotify on Windows it can only write to the default audio device, that does not provide the most direct path to the DAC as the digital stream goes through the system mixer and may get resampled or otherwise altered. You will still benefit from a better DAC but overall the situation with Spotify is less than ideal on Windows.

There have been long standing requests from the community for Spotify to add ASIO or WASAPI exclusive mode support that were largely ignored.
https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/ASIO-Output-support/idi-p/19519

They kind of half-assed the sound device selection in the latest versions but afaik it is still not using the exclusive mode and was reported to be unreliable:
https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/Allow-user-to-select-default-sound-device/idi-p/5351

What can you do about it?
1. Fidelify is a 3rd party Spotify client that supports WASAPI exclusive mode, but its stability and feature set is questionable (I haven't tried it).
2. Use Chromecast Audio through its optical output into your DAC. One caveat your DAC must be able to deal with incoming jitter as the CCA's optical output has been found to be quite jittery. Another aspect the CCA is using 256kbps AAC stream vs. 320kbps OGG on desktop, but given AAC is a better compression algorithm the quality should be equivalent if not better.
3. JRiver media center comes with a virtual WDM driver that can intercept/route audio with minimal changes to the JRiver engine, and then out to a WASAPI/ASIO device. I use this, this is still not a true direct path to the DAC but a big improvement over the default Windows sound device IMO, but ymmv, etc.
4. Virtual Audio Cable/ASIO Bridge out to an ASIO driver or maybe Asio4All, this is a similar concept to #3 but I've found it doesn't sound as good.



Huh? Spotify is 16 bits/44.1 kHz compressed. If you have Windows resample audio to 32/192kHz that ain't a good thing.

Thank you Sir ,Spotify via JRiver looks like home run ,bypassing OS and switching from 192kHz to 352kHz made unexpected improvement :),from 352kHz to 768kHz I didn't noticed much
Cheers
 

gvl

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Thank you Sir ,Spotify via JRiver looks like home run ,bypassing OS and switching from 192kHz to 352kHz made unexpected improvement :),from 352kHz to 768kHz I didn't noticed much
Cheers

:D Just to make sure, the WDM driver itself has to be set to 16/44.1kHz in the Windows settings. You can then use JRiver DSP studio to upsample, convolution, EQ, etc., as needed. For upsampling you can use SoX or the default JRiver method (SSRC?) , they produce slightly different sound flavor, both are much better than whatever method Windows is using. Unsure if there is a good reason to not just let your DAC do it though unless yours is NOS, but in theory PC can do a better job than the hardware-constrained DAC.
 

rh0Negative

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Both R2R11 (NOS) and D50 were tested ,I think R2R11 (352kHz limit) benefited the most
 

gvl

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R2R11 (352kHz limit) benefited the most

Not overly surprising. I looked briefly and couldn't find the R2R11's resolution on the a-gd website but you want to set the output bit-depth in JRiver that matches the DAC module resolution (not the 32-bits that the USB board supports), this is necessary to ensure correct dither to your device post upsampling.
 
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rh0Negative

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Not overly surprising. I looked briefly and couldn't find the R2R11's resolution on the a-gd website but you want to set the output bit-depth in JRiver that matches the DAC module resolution (not the 32-bits that the USB board supports), this is necessary to ensure correct dither to your device post upsampling.
it's Amanero interface
https://www.amanero.com/
 

gvl

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I know, unfortunately the bit-depth supported by the interface often has little to do with the bit-depth supported by the DAC chip/module. The specs say 100dB SNR, I'm guessing it is a 16-18 bit DAC R2R module vs. 32 bits for the Amanero, the output bit-depth in JRiver should be set to 16 bits then not 32.
 

charlesk

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Hi, I am newbie here.

I am considering to get Topping D50 . . currently I am using AKM 4490EQ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/201...-Support-Coaxial-Optical-USB/32663451787.html). Bought this 2 years ago. sound quite good, no complain. My amp is NAD 316BEE and speaker is Monitor Audio (Bronze-series bookshelf).

Mostly using it to hookup to PC listening to FLAC file (from original CD or DVD), watching movies (over the net or PC-DVD), youtube. Will there be audible sound improvement with the Topping D50?

By the way, someone in the forum has issue with USB ground noise and disconnection. you can consider to get this:
USB audio cable: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/ATA...id=2547253b-9017-4512-bc32-a18cd9fd27a4&tpp=1


Thanks
 
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OP
amirm

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Hi there. Welcome to the forum. It is hard to evaluate something from pictures. But I would say if there is a difference between that and D50, it will be small. So if you are happy with what you have, I would stay with it and put the money elsewhere.
 

chungjun

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Veri

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Thank you Sir ,Spotify via JRiver looks like home run ,bypassing OS and switching from 192kHz to 352kHz made unexpected improvement :),from 352kHz to 768kHz I didn't noticed much
Cheers
Please, let's not start the "upsampling makes a good improvement" debate unless you performed some kind of ABX/blind testing. Upsampling is such a bunch of BS, the Topping comes with very high quality FR, passing your source audio in original sample rate just makes sense. Going for "bigger numbers" and claiming big difference seems really questionable. The original sample rate is still being interpolated, whether it's a good or a very good algorithm it's very doubtful to create detail that wasn't there originally.
 
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