Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

[amirm]

Let's not get personal or bring God into this please...

 

[guenthi_r]

Let's God save us from engineers like You.

First of all, thank you for the provided information.
My mistake was, i posted my question in the wrong thread, sorry @amirm for that!

Sure, the D10 is very good for the money, but the OPA2134 is not the best OPAmp for I/V (if there exists any).
I have a lot of different OPA´s from other projects laying around, so i want to play with D10 for fun.

My question was answered by @zenon, so there is no reason to quarrel
Case can be closed

 

[zenon]

Welcome!
I'm using this for reference about I/V stage OP amps.

 

[guenthi_r]

Welcome!
I'm using this for reference about I/V stage OP amps.
View attachment 29123

I already know this document, thanks!

 

[FireLion]

@amirm have you tried a v5i-d in this? I think it might have improved the sound to my ears, I might even prefer it to the D30 in it's modded form or the sound of the D10 just pairs better with the rest of my setup.

 

[amirm]

@amirm have you tried a v5i-d in this? I think it might have improved the sound to my ears, I might even prefer it to the D30 in it's modded form or the sound of the D10 just pairs better with the rest of my setup.

I have not. But the other ones I tried made no difference. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-op-amps-in-topping-d10-dac.4576/#post-102448

 

[Johnb]

I have not. But the other ones I tried made no difference. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-op-amps-in-topping-d10-dac.4576/#post-102448

One thing that we know for sure is that it is a great way to almost double the cost of your D10 DAC. $89 + $69 = $158 Now, for the cost of unnecessarily expensive interconnects or other "tweaks", you're in the territory of the D50s. Good money after bad?

 

[FireLion]

I have not. But the other ones I tried made no difference. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-op-amps-in-topping-d10-dac.4576/#post-102448

I had a matrix amp and had tested 6-7 regular ic's and was about to sell it and then I tried the v5i-d, i found the v5i-d to be the smoothest even over the v6 which was a bit too bright all the rest had some kind of harshness but this was a fault of the amp, the v5i just helped it sound smoother.

I know the test results might not vary for distortion but how do we correlate test data in relation to imaging, sound-stage, separation, tonality and all that other good stuff.

I also wanted to test these guys in my amp, seeing as they are many times cheaper than a op amp maker based in the west that charges about $90 per unit. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32936227417.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.13bd2e0e1Hphv5

"Each transistor of the op amp operates in a linear region, so that the audio amplification is perfectly linearized, and there is no difference in the slew rate caused by the input voltage. This is the reason why the high frequency is not harsh.
This op amp uses the front, middle and rear third-level Darlington structure amplification circuit, not only to make the input high impedance. And each stage of amplification response time is very fast.
Since the compensation capacitor is added to the op amp circuit, the consistency of the low-frequency amplification is perfectly matched, and there is no problem that the low-frequency amplification compensation time is not enough. This is the deeper reason why the low-frequency is more powerful.
Upgrade DAC, preamp, decode, amp
A type A amplifier circuit, the sound is mellow and sweet, the bass is thick, the middle sound is crisp, and the high sound is not harsh ".

Sounds good! Throws money!

 

[FireLion]

One thing that we know for sure is that it is a great way to almost double the cost of your D10 DAC. $89 + $69 = $158 Now, for the cost of unnecessarily expensive interconnects or other "tweaks", you're in the territory of the D50s. Good money after bad?

I did get a loan of the v5i, personally i think most of them are a $20-30 product. I do not agree with the super high rates some makers charge.

 

[amirm]

I know the test results might not vary for distortion but how do we correlate test data in relation to imaging, sound-stage, separation, tonality and all that other good stuff.

I can measure such effects. The data so far though points to none of this objectively being there. Unless you have two D10s, one with and one without where you can do instant AB comparisons, your memory is not good enough to determine that.

 

[Johnb]

An interesting paring to the D10 would be the NX3s. They would rubberband together quite nicely for a killer portable setup, and at Massdrop prices $50 + $71 = $120. Of course, Massdrop sells the NX4 for $115 or so, so that would be a better option if one did not own one or the other.

That is always the Dilemma: cut your losses or invest some more. I own the NX3s, a truly nice amp, but never a good cheap dac that is worthy of the pairing. Also own SMSL Idea, but overpriced for this scenario, not as good as D10, and less than elegant wiring.

 

[FireLion]

I can measure such effects. The data so far though points to none of this objectively being there. Unless you have two D10s, one with and one without where you can do instant AB comparisons, your memory is not good enough to determine that.

How would one justify spending $1000+ on a really up market DAC vs something like a D10/30? If they both have very good numbers according to specific tests which demonstrate good engineering then what is the justification for getting a SU-8, DX7 or SMSL VMV M1 other than the extra filters or connections?

*What do your tests mainly cover? (I have much to learn on the tests that are exercised here)
*Do you see any improvements in sound and have expensive DAC's shown to be better to your ears?
*Do you do much in the way of testing with music?

 

[FireLion]

Sorry if seem like I am being nosey, I appreciate all the testing done here and reference the reviews before I opull the trigger on new equipment.

 

[Johnb]

Sorry if seem like I am being nosey, I appreciate all the testing done here and reference the reviews before I opull the trigger on new equipment.

Your question to Amir was a good one. This is why Amir did his study on op-amp rolling.

 

[MZKM]

how do we correlate test data in relation to imaging, sound-stage, separation, tonality and all that other good stuff.

Tonality: Frequency response + distortion

Everything else you mentioned is just channel mismatch and channel separation. The actual loudspeakers/headphones is where the majority of the quality of the imaging/soundstage comes from, which is based on the off-axis performance in relation to the on-axis.

 

[Johnb]

How would one justify spending $1000+ on a really up market DAC vs something like a D10/30? If they both have very good numbers according to specific tests which demonstrate good engineering then what is the justification for getting a SU-8, DX7 or SMSL VMV M1 other than the extra filters or connections?

*What do your tests mainly cover? (I have much to learn on the tests that are exercised here)
*Do you see any improvements in sound and have expensive DAC's shown to be better to your ears?
*Do you do much in the way of testing with music?

Why, indeed? The question of value is a subjective one. Lately, the better Chinese manufacturers are striving for and achieving greatness at extremely low price points. Some of the good American manufacturers charge a lot but provide absolutely state of the art measurements. There are people with sufficient incomes who wish to support them. Some people also put a premium on build quality, or features.

However, Amir has also tested obscenely expensive boutique products that are terrible or at best mediocre. The beauty of this site is that those of us with limited disposable incomes can find cheap gear that is within spitting distance of state of the f'Art. Amir himself uses Topping DX3 Pro, which is within a few db of the best equipment in almost all measurements. And it's cheap. The point is, NOT the absolute best in any one test. There is a point at which most of us think, "OK that's good enough for me. Beyond this point, any improvement is probably not audible, and I don't wish to spend many multiples more for an improvement, even if it was there." But there are people for whom $1000 is coffee money. Good for them.

 

[FireLion]

Topping on top!

 

[FireLion]

Is it possible to get headphones on a measurement rig, swap the DAC's out and see is there any change to the FR graph?

Usually it's just headphones that are measured but wondering has anyone used such equipment to test the DAC instead using the same headphone.

 

[Daverz]

How would one justify spending $1000+ on a really up market DAC vs something like a D10/30? If they both have very good numbers according to specific tests which demonstrate good engineering then what is the justification for getting a SU-8, DX7 or SMSL VMV M1 other than the extra filters or connections?

I think you answered your own question. Once you get to the SMSL VMV price level, there is very tough competition from more featureful devices like the RME ADI2, the MiniDSP SHN, the Okto DAC8, Motu, etc.

 

[amirm]

How would one justify spending $1000+ on a really up market DAC vs something like a D10/30? If they both have very good numbers according to specific tests which demonstrate good engineering then what is the justification for getting a SU-8, DX7 or SMSL VMV M1 other than the extra filters or connections?

THere are a few justifications. One is balanced output that relieves you from worrying about ground loops. More expensive units also have larger displays, and internal power supplies. And yes, the best ones do measure better and guarantee transparency to the source.

All of this said, no, you don't have to buy the most expensive. I have a lot of gear yet use the $200 Topping DX3 Pro for my everyday use. I like the functionality and look and feel of it.