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Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

zenon

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Hi everyone!
I am new here, but I am reading this forum log time ago.
So, about Topping D10.
After some research, I found that Audio part is powering by pulse power supply and voltage is +/-8V, instead 12/15V.
Very strange decision for powering opamps.
Is lower voltage degrade/rise THD etc.?

8V.jpg
 
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Krunok

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I even fired up my Raspberry Pi (with PiCorePlayer) last night and the only output device that looked pertinent was "usb audio".
I will try all this again after I receive my D10; hopefully soon.
 
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@Mr. Electric Wizard :

I'll try to provide some info regarding audio in Windows, and how I see things. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong though, so you may want to look out for replies to my post. :)

ASIO was developed Steinberg, but is widespread among good audio devices [*1]. It allows stereo and multi-channel I/O on devices which support those, in this case 2-channel output. It locks the device to the player meaning that no other players can access the audio device whilst it is in use. The ASIO driver normally provides faster response and buffer control and so lower latency for recording interfaces, which doesn't matter here.

WASAPI is built into Windows 7 and later. There are two modes of operation, Exclusive and Shared. Exclusive mode allows the hardware to be locked to a software program, and this behaviour is very similar to ASIO. It is also relatively quick for recording devices, but I think ASIO is usually faster with less glitches. Shared mode allows for two audio devices to be accessible at the same time, say a recording device and a different playback device. Not relevant to us here, but I think WASAPI Shared can cause issues with clock sync and therefor recommend to use Exclusive mode where possible.
Additionally WASAPI has two modes that are sometimes exposed in the playback software, these are Event and Push (sometimes slightly differently named). In a nutshell Event means the device requests audio data packets from the player, whereas the other mode means the player just pushes the data out and the device has to handle it. These minor modes are the same for both Exclusive and Shared. It is more complicated than that when synchrous and asynchrous USB is thrown in, but generally speaking Event (device request data) is preferred, as is Exclusive mode.

Both ASIO and WASAPI support PCM, but WASAPI does not support DSD natively. DSD over PCM (DoP) is supported by both because they only see PCM data (the DSD is losslessly packaged within). A dedicated ASIO driver will allow for native DSD to stream to a DSD DAC.

[*1] there are some good hardware devices that do not have ASIO drivers, but mostly, it is the cheaper and less good devices that don't have ASIO drivers. Maybe my opinion here, but I think it's a sensible thing to offer.

I had to install the Topping drive on a Windows 7 netbook because the D10 just didn't seem to work properly on it. That said, there were a few pops and clicks on playback with that machine, which hasn't happened on others, so I'll put that down to the netbook computer more than anything.

The good news is that installing the Topping drive is quick and easy. There is a tray icon that allows for volume control (of the DAC chip) as well as ASIO buffer settings, not that they matter too much here, it's not a recording interface and thus latency is not an issue to consider. The tray icon can be removed by closing it. There is a startup shortcut in the start>startup folder, so removing that stops the tray icon appearing. Nice, easy, I like that.
 
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Hi everyone!
I am new here, but I am reading this forum log time ago.
So, about Topping D10.
After some research, I found that Audio part is powering by pulse power supply and voltage is +/-8V, instead 12/15V.
Very strange decision for powering opamps.
Is lower voltage degrade/rise THD etc.?

View attachment 18104
This unit is spec'd for a standard line-level output voltage of 2 volts RMS. A +/-8V power supply scheme will easily support that.
This assumes you don't "roll" an op-amp into the circuit that doesn't have the wide PS range of the standard OPA2134 used.

The distortion measurements performed by Amir look very good to me.

Dave.
 
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@Mr. Electric Wizard :

I'll try to provide some info regarding audio in Windows, and how I see things. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong though, so you may want to look out for replies to my post. :)

ASIO was developed Steinberg, but is widespread among good audio devices [*1]. It allows stereo and multi-channel I/O on devices which support those, in this case 2-channel output. It locks the device to the player meaning that no other players can access the audio device whilst it is in use. The ASIO driver normally provides faster response and buffer control and so lower latency for recording interfaces, which doesn't matter here.

WASAPI is built into Windows 7 and later. There are two modes of operation, Exclusive and Shared. Exclusive mode allows the hardware to be locked to a software program, and this behaviour is very similar to ASIO. It is also relatively quick for recording devices, but I think ASIO is usually faster with less glitches. Shared mode allows for two audio devices to be accessible at the same time, say a recording device and a different playback device. Not relevant to us here, but I think WASAPI Shared can cause issues with clock sync and therefor recommend to use Exclusive mode where possible.
Additionally WASAPI has two modes that are sometimes exposed in the playback software, these are Event and Push (sometimes slightly differently named). In a nutshell Event means the device requests audio data packets from the player, whereas the other mode means the player just pushes the data out and the device has to handle it. These minor modes are the same for both Exclusive and Shared. It is more complicated than that when synchrous and asynchrous USB is thrown in, but generally speaking Event (device request data) is preferred, as is Exclusive mode.

Both ASIO and WASAPI support PCM, but WASAPI does not support DSD natively. DSD over PCM (DoP) is supported by both because they only see PCM data (the DSD is losslessly packaged within). A dedicated ASIO driver will allow for native DSD to stream to a DSD DAC.

[*1] there are some good hardware devices that do not have ASIO drivers, but mostly, it is the cheaper and less good devices that don't have ASIO drivers. Maybe my opinion here, but I think it's a sensible thing to offer.

I had to install the Topping drive on a Windows 7 netbook because the D10 just didn't seem to work properly on it. That said, there were a few pops and clicks on playback with that machine, which hasn't happened on others, so I'll put that down to the netbook computer more than anything.

The good news is that installing the Topping drive is quick and easy. There is a tray icon that allows for volume control (of the DAC chip) as well as ASIO buffer settings, not that they matter too much here, it's not a recording interface and thus latency is not an issue to consider. The tray icon can be removed by closing it. There is a startup shortcut in the start>startup folder, so removing that stops the tray icon appearing. Nice, easy, I like that.

Thanks for the response!
I'm having a difficult time deciding which direction to go. I've been a happy Logitech Media Server (software on my NAS) with SqueezePlay (on my Win10 machine) and a older RaspberryPI (running PiCorePlayer) for years.
I normally control it via iPeng on my iPhone or the Logitech Media Server Web UI.
It works awesome.
Now that I've discovered the D10 (and Audio Science Review) I have realized that my listening software may be limiting playback quaility. All this software was free :).
I have gone back and forth with JRiver (and Whitebear ?? ) because of the HighRez capabilities.
I don't mind paying for JRiver and JRemote but I cannot seem to get JRiver hooked up to my LMS server correctly. When I do, I get all the artists categorized under "Uncategorized" or something like that.
I have done tons of reading and it seems that Whitebear is needed but that it has a prerequisite that LMS has to be installed locally, which mine is not (Open Media Vault NAS).
Now, I'm technically minded (been in IT for 20+ years) but this PC based high rez audio expirence has left me baffled.
Even though I hooked up my PiCorePlayer on my Pi last night, I'd rather have the music source be my PC because I like to watch YouTube videos and such.
Call me confused...
 

Krunok

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I don't mind paying for JRiver and JRemote but I cannot seem to get JRiver hooked up to my LMS server correctly. When I do, I get all the artists categorized under "Uncategorized" or something like that.
I have done tons of reading and it seems that Whitebear is needed but that it has a prerequisite that LMS has to be installed locally, which mine is not (Open Media Vault NAS).
I think there's nothing wrong with your LMS on NAS but that your music files are missing artist tag info.
 
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They aren't though. I have Artist and Album Artist filled in for everything.
Is JRiver a great app, or do people only use it for High Resolution audio because it's one of the few PC players that allows for high bitrate files?
BTW, SqueezePlay has no problems with 24bit files as I've got several that play fine.
No idea if its transcoding or whatever though.
 

Krunok

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They aren't though. I have Artist and Album Artist filled in for everything.
Is JRiver a great app, or do people only use it for High Resolution audio because it's one of the few PC players that allows for high bitrate files?
BTW, SqueezePlay has no problems with 24bit files as I've got several that play fine.
No idea if its transcoding or whatever though.
If Jriver doesn't work well with LMS running on your NAS then forget it.

Check here if you're running the latest version of SqueezePlay app: https://sourceforge.net/projects/lmsclients/files/squeezeplay/windows/

Or you may try Squeezelite-X:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/squeezelite-x/9pbhmtnp9037?activetab=pivot:overviewtab
 
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This site has some free PCM and DSD material so that you can confirm playback of everything works.
http://www.2l.no/hires/

To be honest, I think I tried JRiver once or twice and for paid-for software it was miles behind the customisation I could make to the free Foobar2000. I appreciate that many folks won't like tinkering with fb2k to make the interface work for them, and therefor JRiver probably suits them better.

Foobar2000 can be controlled from a webpage on your local network, but you'd need to add the component to do that.
This would mean the Windows PC could play music bit-perfect to a DAC and be controlled by your phone.

Volumio on the Raspberry Pi 3B works OK. Hi-Res and DSD gave me some issues when trying out Upnp/DLNA from Foobar2000, but regular ripped CD's were fine. Volumio is controlled via a webpage interface on your local network. It's meant to run on a headless pi.
 

zenon

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This unit is spec'd for a standard line-level output voltage of 2 volts RMS. A +/-8V power supply scheme will easily support that.
This assumes you don't "roll" an op-amp into the circuit that doesn't have the wide PS range of the standard OPA2134 used.

The distortion measurements performed by Amir look very good to me.

Dave.
This is what I am talking about. Clip_1.jpg
 
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Volumio on the Raspberry Pi 3B works OK. Hi-Res and DSD gave me some issues when trying out Upnp/DLNA from Foobar2000, but regular ripped CD's were fine. Volumio is controlled via a webpage interface on your local network. It's meant to run on a headless pi.
That's how PiCorePlayer works as well. The cool thing about it is that to get it installed, all you have to do is use something like Win32DiskImager to burn the .img file onto an SD card. After that, it just works. No real installer or anything. Really neat.
 
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Hi Guys, need some help. I installed the foobar2000 on win7 to test my D10. And I get this inside the Preference->Output->Asio the screen on the right Access Denied. Something is blocking.
The console displays this "ASIO driver enumeration failure: Could not start the worker process - Access is denied. "

What should I do? thanks in advance.
 

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This is what I am talking about. View attachment 18125
Yeah, 10 volt signal into a 2K ohm load.
With nominal 2 volt signal levels and typical (much higher R) loads those relative distortion numbers will equalize.

I really don't see the issue here. Many of these USB-powered gadgets like the D10 have a very similar power supply scheme.
Maybe you're thinking along the lines of external loading to pull the devices into Class-A or something??

Dave.
 

Krunok

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ne.

Volumio on the Raspberry Pi 3B works OK. Hi-Res and DSD gave me some issues when trying out Upnp/DLNA from Foobar2000, but regular ripped CD's were fine. Volumio is controlled via a webpage interface on your local network. It's meant to run on a headless pi.
If you have USB DAC than you're having issues with HiRes and DSD (probably occasional popping noises or dropouts) because of poor architecture of USB bus not spearated from networking. For that reason RPI is not a good platform for USB DACs.
 

zenon

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Yeah, 10 volt signal into a 2K ohm load.
With nominal 2 volt signal levels and typical (much higher R) loads those relative distortion numbers will equalize.

I really don't see the issue here. Many of these USB-powered gadgets like the D10 have a very similar power supply scheme.
Maybe you're thinking along the lines of external loading to pull the devices into Class-A or something??

Dave.
Yes, 10V/2kOm is pretty extreme.
I'm just thinking about linear power supply (5v digital, via USB & 12/15v audio) + add some inductance (100uH) before filter group (-V/+V) of op amps (to reduce HiFreq in power bus, if any)..
D10 is not bad, but I thing, that we can help it to be better.
 
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Got it. Went through their documentation about getting DSD to play in Foobar2k and it works!
I'm getting DSD files playing and the display says 2.82 DSD. Neat!
Now if I could just get the .dsf files to show up in my library in Logitech Media Server I might be set.
 
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