Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

[AresHarvest]

One thing I did notice, probably the USB power being iffy or the netbook/windows being clunky, over some time we'd hear an odd click or pop, and then things sounded a bit like a garble of dull clicks that seemed to get worse. I simply paused Foobar2000 and unpaused an they went away, back to clean sound. I'm thinking it might be a buffer issue or power.

Hi, coincidentally I experienced something very similar just last night with foobar2000 into D10 on a Windows laptop. Windows happened to be downloading an update at the time, and everything was fine once the update completed and I restarted. It's worth checking if yours also updated at that time - you can see the history in Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update > View update history.

 

[L5730]

It wasn't an update, but thanks for the thought.
It's Windows 7 and the hardware isn't well supported (lazy Acer board), so I have a few updates pending but set to not install unless I actually manually click them - a far cry from Win10Home's terrible behaviour.
WiFi was off anyway, so it wasn't that.

I've put the WASAPI worker thread priority up (tick box in fb2k prefs), set the D10 USB buffer to 'safe' rather than 'reliable'. I don't know if it will make much difference, it didn't seem to glitch after I did that, but then we didn't listen for a huge amount of time after.

Edit: Correction to my last, it's s/n 1808xxxxxx

 

[L5730]

Does anyone know the current draw of this thing?
I've read 2A in this thread, and 200mA in soft standby-ish mode with indication that it's 2/3 of operation use , so about 300mA.

I don't have one of those little USB multi-meter current/volt measuring doo-dah things. I didn't fancy buying cheap and it being inaccurate = pointless. I suppose I could just learn my electronics wiring and split a USB extension cable, then tap into that with a proper multi-meter.

 

[amirm]

Does anyone know the current draw of this thing?

I just tested it. It pulls between 300 to 320 milliamps.

 

[AresHarvest]

That meets USB spec for high-power devices (≤500 mA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power

Does the display dimming make any difference? I would assume it does, but I'm not new to being wrong.

 

[L5730]

I just tested it. It pulls between 300 to 320 milliamps.

Fantastic! Thanks for the fast reply.

Great, this is within USB 2.0 spec, but some cheaper little devices may just be a bit liberal with their spec and might be struggling to actually put out that amount. No fault of the DAC, utterly the fault of the computer/device.

More work needed to narrow down the maybe issue on the Acer netbook.

 

[L5730]

Thank you AresHarvest! This is exactly the information I was looking for, and the numbers are indeed quite good. I'm already running at 64 samples today with a USB 2.0 Roland UA-S10 but it doesn't have a toslink or coax output. I'm going to order a D10 right now, this is perfect.

For those curious, the latency as reported by Reaper for 64 samples at 40 kHz is less than 5ms and in my opinion excellent for live playing. [...]

So how are you using 2 devices at once? D10 to speakers and Roland to record.
I guess you can use WASAPI shared mode, or ASIO4ALL.
Whilst I have done this kind of thing int he past, there is a high risk of glitchy crackling needing the buffers made larger and the latency made worse. Sometimes it just falls apart and the sync doesn't work so well, requiring a restarting fo the audio driver in Reaper.
I've used onboard audio, an HP headset and M-Audio 2496 PCI interface and it's been hit and miss in the past.

 

[frogmeat69]

Back up on Massdrop, and I think it's even cheaper now, $69.99.

 

[BebeAni]

Hi I am new here and i bought the D10 to pair with Edifier S2000pro active speakers, i don't know much about impedance and because it's just a DAC (and not an amp) and I use an RCA cable to connect to speakers will it cause issues because the speakers have built in amplifer inside.
Also when i plug the D10 the first time on Windows 10 will the drivers install automatically, or do I also have to download the drivers from the website

 

[L5730]

Hi I am new here and i bought the D10 to pair with Edifier S2000pro active speakers, i don't know much about impedance and because it's just a DAC (and not an amp) and I use an RCA cable to connect to speakers will it cause issues because the speakers have built in amplifer inside.
Also when i plug the D10 the first time on Windows 10 will the drivers install automatically, or do I also have to download the drivers from the website

Hi,
I just looked on Edifier's site at those speakers. They are active meaning they have their own internal amplifier. From the literature it seems that their amplifier is actually a digital one and any analogue signals fed to them will be firstly converted to digital before going to the digital amplifier circuit and then the actual speaker driver/cone. These looks to be in the form of one speaker has the inputs, power and amp in and the other is driven from the first.

The D10 is a DAC with Line Level outputs as RCA connectors. You would connect the D10 RCA red/right and white/left to the same RCA inputs on the Edifier speaker with those connectors.
However, as the Edifier's will likely convert the D10's analogue input into digital you may as well run a S/PDIF cable from the Coax or Optical connectors on the D10 to the Edifier. No conversion then, simply Digital-to-Digital, let the speaker's amp do the single conversion.
If you do connect digitally, you may have issues with DSD material as I do not know what the D10 does with it regarding it's own digital outs.

A side note, you are right to be a little cautious about impedance. Thankfully we are dealing with line level and this makes life a lot easier - it is designed with 'dumb' consumers in mind, so it's mostly OK to hook up the way you think. Although, still best to always check.

On Windows 10 you can use Foobar2000 or JRiver or other good quality music player to play out via WASAPI push mode. You do not need drivers for this, and it will be bit-perfect, providing the player can do that. Being Class Compliant means no drivers needed.
If you want DSD playback then you will need the driver installed, I think, and a few components added to Foobar2000 - which are included with instructions in the download zip. The components for SACD/DSD are open source and the version included is a little older, although simpler to setup. The newer versions of the components may offer more functionality but are more confusing - DoP and DSD native and the displayed sample rates lead to some head scratching until it all clicks and you realise DoP is actually DSD just wrapped in a PCM package, and is lossless.
The driver allows for playback by ASIO, which you may prefer in terms of stability or may make no difference to WASAPI - but it isn't needed for HiRes PCM playback.
Note the driver installs a system tray icon (bottom right of task bar). It's located in the startup folder (shell:startup) so that it runs on each boot. It is not needed and can be run on demand with the start menu > Topping entry. Delete or move this startup file if you so wish.

 

[BebeAni]

Yeah I did the driver installation, the manual said to finish installation remove dac from usb, however when i installed it It didn't provide the popup saying "remove device then reconnect" so i just restarted PC and i'm wondering if i damaged it

 

[BebeAni]

ALso usb streaming mode does it apply to PCM or DSD or both, and is the 'Relaxed' mode fine or reliable

 

[L5730]

I doubt you would have caused any damage by rebooting your computer with it still attached to USB. You'll get a couple of pops through any connected amp/speakers maybe, but I have rebooted a few times and no strangeness encountered.

Installing the driver will mean that Windows will forget the class compliant name, and it will now be addressed as a device with a driver. That's why it would need to be disconnected and reconnected. Rebooting would do the same thing, and arguably do a better job as it'll clear out any strange windows things.

If it is detected, and you can play audio through it, it isn't damaged.

I do not know what the effect of the driver settings are. I haven't experimented with them in the Topping control panel other than to set the buffer to safe, to see if it might have some effect on the issue I was having with a Windows 7 netbook.
ASIO buffer size is Auto by default, but normally setting it to a small number means that the computer can 'talk' to it faster, but at the risk of crackles and pops as buffer packets get lost (there is a more technical answer but I'm keeping it simple). Setting the buffer to a bigger number will cause higher latency (delay between computer and device) but should reduce the CPU load and stop crackles/pops. Setting it too large might be an issue if the device can't actually buffer that amount of data - not often but I have seen drivers that let you set a buffer size beyond what the H/W can do!

In the case of a ADC/DAC computer audio interface/sound card, setting a low buffer size is good for tracking. Say you wanted to record a vocal and add some reverb and maybe other FX in the computer. A low buffer/low latency will mean you can listen to your voice with real-time effects. A high latency fro a high buffer (and high buffering FX) would mean your voice would be delayed and you simply couldn't stand listening to your own voice delayed, whilst trying to sing. It a really annoying thing.
But for straight playback, not really an issue at all.

Whether or not these settings have any effect on DSD I do not know.

 

[BebeAni]

I doubt you would have caused any damage by rebooting your computer with it still attached to USB. You'll get a couple of pops through any connected amp/speakers maybe, but I have rebooted a few times and no strangeness encountered.

Installing the driver will mean that Windows will forget the class compliant name, and it will now be addressed as a device with a driver. That's why it would need to be disconnected and reconnected. Rebooting would do the same thing, and arguably do a better job as it'll clear out any strange windows things.

Thank you L5730,so much for clearing my head, I understand now

 

[L5730]

@amirm and other electrical technically knowledgeable people.
I am thinking of leaving this DAC permanently connected to a computer, but would need to switch the DAC on/off when is required. No point having the DAC running when I don't need it.

All the inline USB switches I find seem to be power switching only and have no data lines - the purpose, I guess, is for single-board-computers, like RPi etc. to be switched on/off.

If I was to make my own USB A-to-B cable with inline switch, how would I be doing this?
Switch the +5v (red) only, and leave all the other wires (D+ green D- white and GND black) and the shield connected?

 

[έχω δίκιο]

@amirm and other electrical technically knowledgeable people.
I am thinking of leaving this DAC permanently connected to a computer, but would need to switch the DAC on/off when is required. No point having the DAC running when I don't need it.

You can get a USB hub with manual power switches like this one I have:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-4-Port-Individual-Switches-HB-UM43/dp/B0797NWDCB

Note: The link is not for the 4-port version, regardless of what it says.

That said, I keep my D10 powered at all times. It draws only a small amount of power, has a sleep mode, and I've come to believe that inrush current and thermal cycling from switching on and off is tougher on such devices than leaving them powered.

 

[L5730]

You can get a USB hub with manual power switches like this one I have:

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-4-Port-Individual-Switches-HB-UM43/dp/B0797NWDCB

Note: The link is not for the 4-port version, regardless of what it says.

That said, I keep my D10 powered at all times. It draws only a small amount of power, has a sleep mode, and I've come to believe that inrush current and thermal cycling from switching on and off is tougher on such devices than leaving them powered.

Interesting.
Keeping it on all the time isn't going to work here, I am afraid to say.
Laptop gets powered off every night, so the DAC will be too, by nature of it getting power from laptop.
Secondly, most of the while said laptop will be booted to Linux Mint XFCE 18.3 and audio will be routed to laptop 3.5mm jack and desktop speakers. Only when wanting to connect to the HiFi amplifier will the DAC be used, and the laptop will be rebooted into Windows 10 Home 1709 x64 for that purpose (Foobar2000 working natively with on-the-fly sample rate switching).

I do appreciate the debate about always on vs. power on/off, but the situation is how I describe above, hence the request of an inline USB on/off switch for the DAC.

It seems that the USB plugs have a protruding +5 and GND connector, and the Data +/- are recessed a little. This would mean that power and ground are delivered first and removed last. Perhaps a switch would need to do that, rather than simply cutting the +5v power.
I read in an RME forum regarding the Babyface Pro (USB audio interface without it's own on/off switch) that they suggest simply switching the +5 volt line should a switch be required.

 

[έχω δίκιο]

Keeping it on all the time isn't going to work here, I am afraid to say.
Laptop gets powered off every night, so the DAC will be too, by nature of it getting power from laptop.

Unless you get a powered hub like the one I mentioned. You could turn off the laptop without turning off the hub and, hence, all of the peripherals attached to it.

I do appreciate the debate about always on vs. power on/off, but the situation is how I describe above, hence the request of an inline USB on/off switch for the DAC.

See the hub to which I linked. I have that one and it works fine. I have used the switches for the D10 when it had the firmware sleep-of-death issue for which only a power cycle could bring it back to life.

 

[L5730]

Me again.
Are some of the D10's missing the decimal point on the display? I got my second one today and it reads "44.1 PCM" the one first one I got doesn't display a decimal point. I cannot remember if it did or didn't and thus has gone faulty. All of the images I see online show the decimal point.

Secondly.
I noticed some clipping when recording the output.
When playing a 1 kHz 0dBFS sine wave there are some nasty distortions. Turning down to -1.1 dBFS and it plays a sine wave perfectly.
I played Madonna "I Want You" from Something To Remember, and the waveform distinctly clips (flat line) but the original waveform does show some curvature. I turned the track down in Foobar2000 by 1.1 dB and it didn't clip anymore and rendered a 'proper' looking waveform, like the original ripped.
I did write a post about this, but I was halfway through editing, went to do something, rebooted and it disappeared.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

Secondly.
I noticed some clipping when recording the output.
When playing a 1 kHz 0dBFS sine wave there are some nasty distortions

Can you post a photo of that please?

Dave.