Review and Measurements of the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC

[amirm]

I see that double blind testing is adamantly pursued here. But wait, I see a major problem with the testing. No random multiple production samples tested, and the mean average used, but rather individual examples?

One has nothing to do with the other. By your notion, we should throw out every subjective review as well because that device may not match what I buy either.

Fortunately solid state electronic devices are built with very high uniformity by most companies as they measure them before releasing them. This includes PS Audio.

Quantity testing is useful for reliability testing, not for fidelity and performance in this field.

For a Site that prides itself on "test data results above all", I find the testing modus operandi rather wanting.

Well, that is because you are confusing performance with reliability. If I measure frames per second in a game, that is performance. If I measure how long it runs before crashing, that is reliability. Whether the game crashes in 10 minutes or 10 hours doesn't change its fps.

This is a very simple engineering concept. Is your background not technical?

 

[amirm]

Multiples of randomly chosen product should be tested.

I did that once with the Schiit Yggdrasil. Folks who didn't believe the measurements kept saying the units must have been broken. All three of the units produced results that were in agreement with each other.

Then the claim was made that its performance would change over time as it ran. So I made daily measurements over 2 week period. At the end, there was no noticeable difference in performance of the unit. I even heated up the case as if you left it in the sun. Still nothing changed.

If this is important to you, send me three of something and I will test. Otherwise, my time is best spent testing three products, than chasing factors that are simply not in play and cost more to boot.

I have even tested DACs with different opamps and even then, there is no difference to speak of between them. Here I am even changing components yet there is no difference.

I will give you a $500 if you can perform a controlled, double blind test and show that you can tell them apart.

 

[amirm]

A clear and consistent test bench with PSU should be used.

What? Products come with their own power supplies.

If they are USB only, then I use the same port in my USB hub. And these devices better be independent of USB supply or they get thrown out of recommended list anyway.

The test bench is absolutely consistent. Same cables. Same instrument. Same power. Same everything. The only thing different is the device being tested.

 

[amirm]

Products should be tested at their best performance .As an example XLR if available should always be chosen above single ended input. In cases of single ended input testing (including old tests) Data should be on it's on individual Master Index Table.

XLR is always used as such. Don't agree on the second since differences are very small.

 

[amirm]

Last but not least , product samples should be sent for audio evaluation to chosen members ,for double blind testing evaluation. I am fully aware that this last point will be very difficult to achieve and economically challenging, but the upside is that this would for once and for all place ASR as the "go to" Site for all audio gear evaluation.

You need a lot more than products to perform such tests on DACs. You need a way to drive them equally and in synch. You need a way to match levels. And you need hardware and software to perform the ABX test. This is the biggest challenge as you need a very high quality switcher and level matching as otherwise, you easily degrade the performance of the top of the line products we test.

 

[amirm]

My 2Cents worth

That was a lot of complaining and nary any acknowledgement of the data that is already created for you for free to use. You have not contributed to the forum financially but ask that we and others incur a lot more of it to appease people who don't believe in such data anyway.

If you had any good intentions here, the opposite is coming across.

 

[scott wurcer]

On the other hand, folks at PS Audio believe in voodoo magic in audio which would get you thrown out of any professional audio research organization. It is them who need to learn how audio perception works, why their listening tests results are totally wrong and as such, should stop building poorly engineered products.

I wish there was a way to communicate over the barrier but there is a whole school of design that is almost at the level of making dream catchers and fetish totems. Devices are treated as objects of wonder and put together in random ways for "ears only" evaluation. Ask Paul M. what he thinks of the role of quasi-saturation or impact ionization in the behavior of his circuits and look at the blank stares.

 

[BDWoody]

Sorry

That's ok... we're used to it.

 

[GrimSurfer]

My 2Cents worth

https://videa.hu/videok/vicces/snl-total-bastard-airlines-2-ut5ZDGKAYVUsxH4l

Buh bye...

I wish there was a way to communicate over the barrier... Ask Paul M. what he thinks of the role of quasi-saturation or impact ionization in the behavior of his circuits and look at the blank stares.

The barrier is syllables, Scott. Too many syllables. Big words. Difficult concepts. Industry standards. Not using "man" or "gee golly shucks".

 

[Seafire]

As I'm on the other side of the world (2 am here) a quick reply. Somewhere we seem to have been lost in translation. My comments have nothing to do with PS Audio or any specific product. I have always developed / evaluated products with a fast A/B back to back blind test. Baby steps I call it.
Your answer with regards to testing is not totally correct as there are products tested single ended that had XLR as an option. Further I do not agree that the difference between single ended input and XLR is "small" as some design topology is concentrated around full balanced input to output complete with dedicated dac pairs . Noise floor and THD is not small according to your stringent test criteria.

As for the data available freely, as mentioned it is not perfect but was merely a suggestion to take this Site to another level where science and real world testing come together and cut all the BS. Btw I'm sure that once you achieve that, the worlds biggest Audio makers would be knocking at your door for approval.

As for the 500$ offer , make it 10.000 and I will gladly fly out and prove you wrong Ever heard of a nature freak? Been playing with music and electronics from the age of 6 and quickly realized I have a natural advantage over most people when it comes to hearing acute changes in a music medium. But I'm sure you have heard this all before.
Last but not least , my observation is that there is too much personal emotion involved when it comes to Paul of PS Audio. You guys are starting to look like Ethan Winer

 

[restorer-john]

I wish there was a way to communicate over the barrier but there is a whole school of design that is almost at the level of making dream catchers and fetish totems.

Now there's an idea- audiophile dream catchers.

 

[GrimSurfer]

quickly realized I have a natural advantage over most people when it comes to hearing acute changes in a music medium. But I'm sure you have heard this all before.

Yup. Usually from the crazy ones.

 

[Seafire]

Oh and by the way I just noticed something. The DAC that got stoned is not the same Dac you listened too...correct???

 

[splattened]

Although I love scientific data, when it comes to music I let my ears (brain) make the final call.

If the final call is up to your own ears and brain, then what do you care what Amir or any other reviewer hears? I don't understand this complaint about the review which appears to be the #1 complaint by far from reading the other forum. Buy the product or find a place to audition it and listen for yourself then. Nobody is forcing anyone to consider any of these measurements when making decisions. And if you or someone has already bought the product and find the measurements upsetting, then complain to PS Audio. Not a lot of good will come from shooting the messenger. The vast majority of the audience for any given review will not have purchased the product under review. For them the measurements help to filter out all the overpriced, unexceptional, uninteresting chaff that pervades the audio world. It's a huge time and money saver.

 

[Seafire]

Yup. Usually from the crazy ones.

Wow what a informative and mature reply

 

[AndrovichIV]

As I'm on the other side of the world (2 am here) a quick reply. Somewhere we seem to have been lost in translation. My comments have nothing to do with PS Audio or any specific product. I have always developed / evaluated products with a fast A/B back to back blind test. Baby steps I call it.
Your answer with regards to testing is not totally correct as there are products tested single ended that had XLR as an option. Further I do not agree that the difference between single ended input and XLR is "small" as some design topology is concentrated around full balanced input to output complete with dedicated dac pairs . Noise floor and THD is not small according to your stringent test criteria.

As for the data available freely, as mentioned it is not perfect but was merely a suggestion to take this Site to another level where science and real world testing come together and cut all the BS. Btw I'm sure that once you achieve that, the worlds biggest Audio makers would be knocking at your door for approval.

As for the 500$ offer , make it 10.000 and I will gladly fly out and prove you wrong Ever heard of a nature freak? Been playing with music and electronics from the age of 6 and quickly realized I have a natural advantage over most people when it comes to hearing acute changes in a music medium. But I'm sure you have heard this all before.
Last but not least , my observation is that there is too much personal emotion involved when it comes to Paul of PS Audio. You guys are starting to look like Ethan Winer

ASR gives you quality objective data for free. If you want subjective "evaluations" there's tons of them online, unlike the objective data here. I'm sure you'll learn about the "speed" and "attack" of this device.

Naturally, the ears of those reviewers are thousand times more revealing than the instruments that Amirm uses. Naturally.

 

[Seafire]

If the final call is up to your own ears and brain, then what do you care what Amir or any other reviewer hears? I don't understand this complaint about the review which appears to be the #1 complaint by far from reading the other forum. Buy the product or find a place to audition it and listen for yourself then. Nobody is forcing anyone to consider any of these measurements when making decisions. And if you or someone has already bought the product and find the measurements upsetting, then complain to PS Audio. Not a lot of good will come from shooting the messenger. The vast majority of the audience for any given review will not have purchased the product under review. For them the measurements help to filter out all the overpriced, unexceptional, uninteresting chaff that pervades the audio world. It's a huge time and money saver.

Yes I agree. See that is my point. Get it perfect and then there are no more excuses

 

[GrimSurfer]

Wow what a informative and mature reply

It's an informed reply. (Thanks for the autobiographical info. It sealed the deal.)

ASR gives you quality objective data for free.

 

[AndrovichIV]

This

Yes I agree. See that is my point. Get it perfect and then there are no more excuses

Yeah, but everyone's ears are different. If Amirm likes it, that's not informative to me. If Amirm tells me this thing has like 60 db SINAID that's informative here and in China

 

[Seafire]

ASR gives you quality objective data for free. If you want subjective "evaluations" there's tons of them online, unlike the objective data here. I'm sure you'll learn about the "speed" and "attack" of this device.

Naturally, the ears of those reviewers are thousand times more revealing than the instruments that Amirm uses. Naturally.

No my dear friend. Nice reply but my ears and brain are analogue. I can show you recordings on vinyl that 9 out of 10 will choose time and time again. So where is the scientific justification for this distortion spitting vinyl spinning peice of audio kit. AND NO I don't use vinyl,sold it off long ago as it's so inconvenient .