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Review and Measurements of SONOS Amp

amirm

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#62
Maybe I'm missing something, but shouldn't it be 87dB at 5W to match this (level 3 numbers). 68dB at 5W matches the level 2 numbers.
This graph is for max power versus nothing. It is not related to 5 watts. I think I am still not understanding what you are saying. :)
 

pjug

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#63
Well, it will not surprise me if I just don't understand something. However, this is what I mean. Looking at the THD+N number at 5W on the graph, I get about -68dB. I would expect this to be close to the measurement in your other SNR test, at least for a case like this where noise is dominant over THD. So I would expect the graph to agree with the level 3 SNR measurement (87dB). Instead, it agrees with the with the level 2 SNR measurement (68dB).
1551903364369.png
 

Willem

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#64
Personally I do not care for its analogue performance. With a digital input it seems to be a well performing powerful amplifier at a rather competitive price, and with one big advantage: it has auto on/off and hence can be hidden from view. In my view that is a real bonus in domestic use.
 

amirm

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#65
Well, it will not surprise me if I just don't understand something. However, this is what I mean. Looking at the THD+N number at 5W on the graph, I get about -68dB. I would expect this to be close to the measurement in your other SNR test, at least for a case like this where noise is dominant over THD. So I would expect the graph to agree with the level 3 SNR measurement (87dB). Instead, it agrees with the with the level 2 SNR measurement (68dB).
I checked the project file and the graph is definitely the one with level 3 as I have set the max to 2 volts (otherwise it had to be 2.5 volts). I could re-measure the same graph using different input settings to verify what is going on. But that requires me unpacking the unit after I cleaned and boxed the unit up. Are you going to put me undoing that? :)
 

pjug

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#66
I checked the project file and the graph is definitely the one with level 3 as I have set the max to 2 volts (otherwise it had to be 2.5 volts). I could re-measure the same graph using different input settings to verify what is going on. But that requires me unpacking the unit after I cleaned and boxed the unit up. Are you going to put me undoing that? :)
No, no need for that. But perhaps help me understand if something is wrong in my thinking with expecting the graph to match the SNR @5W measurement.
 

amirm

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#67
No, no need for that. But perhaps help me understand if something is wrong in my thinking with expecting the graph to match the SNR @5W measurement.
The one thing I can say is that SNR test is stand-alone and many things impact it so don't use that for anything. The downward part of the slope may be noise dominated but also has a distortion component. It is not clear what the higher gain settings do. Perhaps they increase distortion.
 

pjug

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#68
What if we compare SINAD number @5W to the THD+N shown on the graph - shouldn't they match?
 

amirm

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#69
What if we compare SINAD number @5W to the THD+N shown on the graph - shouldn't they match?
Kind of. The power measurement graph skips steps so may not match with the 5 volt setting I use in the dashboard.
 

pjug

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#70
@amirm so anyway the fact that the Power vs THD+N graph (labeled as Level 3 analog input) matches the results of the Analog Level 2 test of SNR @5W just seemed unlikely to be a coincidence. So I guessed that the graph was mislabeled. But if you are sure that it is correct I will drop it now. Probably I am the only person wondering about this; if not maybe someone else will continue this line of questions.
 
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#73
Would it be possible to test the subwoofer output? Curious if there is a crossover built in to the output, or if upper limit is capped in the app.

Also does the HDMI route audio through the DAC, or is a simple pass through direct through the digital amp?

Any idea why the line inputs perform significantly less than streaming? Was it clipping perhaps, with a 2V signal and the gain setting chosen in the app?
 

amirm

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#74
Would it be possible to test the subwoofer output? Curious if there is a crossover built in to the output, or if upper limit is capped in the app.
That's the output I tested by putting the line out in full range mode. Is this what you are asking?
 

amirm

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#75
Any idea why the line inputs perform significantly less than streaming? Was it clipping perhaps, with a 2V signal and the gain setting chosen in the app?
No, the performance is dominated by noise. It may have something to do with the programmable input they have.
 

amirm

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#76
Also does the HDMI route audio through the DAC, or is a simple pass through direct through the digital amp?
The HDMI is a "roach motel." Signal goes in, nothing comes out. :) There is only one HDMI port. Usually these are pass-through which would let me run my tests. But it is not. I am assuming it captures the audio from it and that is that.
 
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#77
The HDMI is a "roach motel." Signal goes in, nothing comes out. :) There is only one HDMI port. Usually these are pass-through which would let me run my tests. But it is not. I am assuming it captures the audio from it and that is that.
:D:D:D

That's the output I tested by putting the line out in full range mode. Is this what you are asking?
Hmm, so your test output (into the AP) was coming off the subwoofer OUT? Is that the only audio lead that you could test off off (to test the DAC)?

I wonder (not having the unit), if that is why the line in testing was so poor relative to the digital streaming. Maybe the subwoofer output is purposely cut, maybe it was designed only for low end frequency usage.
 

Darwin

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#78
So true. I hate the current tablet interface of Sonos. The old layout was much better. Good thing Sonos left the PC/Mac interface unchanged and that's all I use now to operate my Sonos Connects. The last time I bought a Sonos device was more than a ~decade ago. My Sonos Play-1 stopped working and I don't plan to replace it with another Sonos. The Amazon/Google devices are more functional and cheaper for garage duty.
I have no reason to ever use the Sonos app since Airplay 2 came out.
For the Sonos amp I mostly use Pandora and Apple music from Apple TV or Airplay directly to it. Or Roon. Works great, sounds great.
Airplay 2 allows me to do multi-room with devices from differences companies in one simple interface and works very well.
I'm not as enamored of the Sonos sub as a lot of Sonos users are. I find it a little boomy and not very detailed and may replace it with an SVS sub.
 
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amirm

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#79
Hmm, so your test output (into the AP) was coming off the subwoofer OUT? Is that the only audio lead that you could test off off (to test the DAC)?
Oh wait, I got my reviews mixed up. I thought we were in the NAD 7050 thread. :)

So no, I did not test the subwoofer out.
 

Darwin

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#80
My situation exactly. I have left behind the Sonos and switched to Amazon for my woodshop.
They sound like crap though.
I have found Siri and HomePods to be more reliable with no filching of personal data and Homepods sound much better than anything the rest of them make. Even my Sonos Ones I use with an echo dot because the Sonos ones are so bad at Alexa which kind of defeats the purpose. I find a lot of other Sonos users saying the same thing.
To be clear I have Amazon and Google devices too because I'm into voice control geekery but Siri and Homepods are what runs 90% of my smart home. I've done Alexa for extended periods and find it generally a mess to use and not very reliable.
I only do stereo pairing for all of these. No single speakers.
 
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