Review and Measurements of SMSL SU-8 DAC

[Shoaibexpert]

It's the crappy Magni 3

Tested directly as well without the Magni... Magni 3 shows issues when pushed beyond 75%...

 

[Shoaibexpert]

Get rid of the terrible dragonfly product

Just curious, have you heared the Dragonfly Red? Measurements arent everything you know... Something I'm learning after having bought the SMSL SU-8. For example, Chord MOJO is way down there on the ASR ranking and well under the SMSL SU-8 but it's arguably the most richer and musical DAC out there per most AUDIOPHILE MUSIC reviews I've seen...

 

[Jimster480]

Well seems like I'm the only one here not liking what I hear from the SU-8! Am returning mine tomorrow. I did try to listen to it directly as well as amped and in both instances I found the DAC to be too bright and lacking any feel or layering in music. It's just flat, slightly over bright signal coming from the DAC. I am using it in RCA mode and streaming via Tidal on Windows 10. Am I missing something? How do you guys compare it to other DACs as regards sound quality and feel? Maybe my unit has issues...coz I feel my trusty Dragonfly Red sounds richer than the SMSL SU-8! Any thoughts?

my thoughts are that you enjoy distortion. The dragonfly products are pretty poor performing. On top of that they are already amped so you are double amping your signal.

 

[Jimster480]

Just curious, have you heared the Dragonfly Red? Measurements arent everything you know... Something I'm learning after having bought the SMSL SU-8. For example, Chord MOJO is way down there on the ASR ranking and well under the SMSL SU-8 but it's arguably the most richer and musical DAC out there per most AUDIOPHILE MUSIC reviews I've seen...

Yes I listened to it at an audio meet-up last year. It didn't sound special in any way. I didn't do enough critical listening to really determine how poor it does or doesn't sound but there was no immediate difference outside of power when I tested it.

 

[Shoaibexpert]

Just to help those who feel the SMSL is thin or too bright here's how one of the ASR community members @DjBobby helped me fix the brightness issue. I switched to Fast Minimum and the DAC seems clearer than the Dragonfly Red now, the bass feels more alive, bright edge is almost gone with all details present, vocals are no longer blending into sub bass and I feel blacker background with the minimum phase on?! I also switched to the Original profile (present only in the V2 of this DAC and not in V1) from the options and that opened up the mids like I like them. Yup Dragonfly Red is nowhere in sight now!

The only question I have now is that am I musically corrupt in liking the 'Fast Minimum' and not the Default 'Fast Linear' as I do not actually know how these modes operate but I sure as hell am not sending this DAC back after switching to Fast Minimum?

 

[T.J. Turner]

Just to help those who feel the SMSL is thin or too bright here's how one of the ASR community members @DjBobby helped me fix the brightness issue. I switched to Fast Minimum and the DAC seems clearer than the Dragonfly Red now, the bass feels more alive, bright edge is almost gone with all details present, vocals are no longer blending into sub bass and I feel blacker background with the minimum phase on?! I also switched to the Original profile (present only in the V2 of this DAC and not in V1) from the options and that opened up the mids like I like them. Yup Dragonfly Red is nowhere in sight now!

The only question I have now is that am I musically corrupt in liking the 'Fast Minimum' and not the Default 'Fast Linear' as I do not actually know how these modes operate but I sure as hell am not sending this DAC back after switching to Fast Minimum?

The filter setting should have been set to fast minimum by default. At least mine was. Unless I changed it by mistake and didnt notice. Anyway at least you cleared up the issue.

 

[Veri]

The only question I have now is that am I musically corrupt in liking the 'Fast Minimum' and not the Default 'Fast Linear' as I do not actually know how these modes operate but I sure as hell am not sending this DAC back after switching to Fast Minimum?

Well, odd. Archimago did some tests on his blog before, and among the tests there's always some people that pick the difference with high certainty as in the case of linear vs minimum phase filtering. I for one cannot hear a difference at all, but always pick the low delay option when present, which also happens to be a minimum phase approach for lowest latency (again, not an audible issue but can be important for studio work).

Some invidivuals could, I suppose, be sensitive to phase changes. But then the curious thing is that linear phase keeps absolute phase in tact, minimum phase does not. Yet you seem to prefer minimum phase? Curious indeed.

 

[T.J. Turner]

Was Fast Minimum the default setting or was it Fast Linear?

 

[badyard]

Was Fast Minimum the default setting or was it Fast Linear?

Fast Linear was default, however I have switched mine to Fast Minimum from the very first day, after some critical listening trough the filters seemed to be the best sounding to my ears,
I totally confirm what mr. @Shoaibexpert said about the difference in sound with Fast Minimum 'cause I had the same experience a while ago and thought it was just weird!

 

[Anmol]

It's the crappy Magni 3.
The dragonfly red is a poor performer and it's delivering and amped signal to an amp.
Get rid of the terrible dragonfly product and your Magni 3 and get yourself something good.

I still own magni 3 and sitting in desk drawer. I find it a bit harsh sounding. As if sort of music edges are distorted and bright. There is plenty of power on tap. Amir did compare it with topping product in one of his post and magni3 surprisingly measured fine. My hearing is ok, wondering how did magni3 measure comparable with good ones when it is clearly harsh sounding. I did get a mild shock one day too while touching its knob(dont laugh). Not sure if its due to static electricity or........

 

[DjBobby]

Just to help those who feel the SMSL is thin or too bright here's how one of the ASR community members @DjBobby helped me fix the brightness issue. I switched to Fast Minimum and the DAC seems clearer than the Dragonfly Red now, the bass feels more alive, bright edge is almost gone with all details present, vocals are no longer blending into sub bass and I feel blacker background with the minimum phase on?! I also switched to the Original profile (present only in the V2 of this DAC and not in V1) from the options and that opened up the mids like I like them. Yup Dragonfly Red is nowhere in sight now!

The only question I have now is that am I musically corrupt in liking the 'Fast Minimum' and not the Default 'Fast Linear' as I do not actually know how these modes operate but I sure as hell am not sending this DAC back after switching to Fast Minimum?

The Linear fast roll off filter has linear phase response with pre- and post ringing. The Minimum phase has non-linear phase response and trades the pre-ringing for a longer post-ringing.

Linear phase filter has a linear phase response which is essential for the right localization of instruments on the virtual stage, particularly with the symphonic music and live recordings. It is objectively the "right filter" but due to the unnatural pre-ringing, it could sound bright, harsh and fatiguing, especially when listening through the headphones.

Due to Minimum phase's non-linear phase response, deeper frequencies reach the ear earlier than the higher frequencies, which makes it subjectively warmer, fuller or richer sounding than the linear filter. Also in the absence of the pre-ringing, the note's attacks are cleaner and less smeared. The longer post-ringing makes a natural reverberation, which sounds more pleasant to the ear especially with dry recordings.

When listening to the studio recorded music which is anyway sampled, dubbed and post-processed, the phase linearity and the instruments localization don't play anymore that great role, especially when listening with the headphones. No headphones can ever recreate the real space listening experience with the loudspeakers. Some HPs use tricks to make it better out of the head experience, but generally the stage is always compromised. With the headphones being very close to the eardrum, pre-ringing of the Linear filter could be experienced as an unpleasant bright "digital" edge and that's why the ear prefers the Minimum phase's rounder approach.

Therefore IMO when listening with the headphones, the Minimum phase filter gives always more pleasant and musical experience.
When listening with the desktop loudspeakers or near field monitors for most studio, pop, rock, world music and background music, I still prefer the Minimum phase.
For real "critical" listening of symphonic classical and live jazz music through the big floor-standers, I switch the filter to the Linear Phase Fast. Sitting quite apart from the speakers in a bigger room doesn't make the linear filter nearly so bright anymore and gives me the right spatial cues.

So the short answer:
When using headphones: minimum phase
With the loudspeakers: minimum phase, with the exception of the classical symphonies and live jazz when the linear phase is preferred.

I hope. this very personal and subjective experience sheds a little light on your similar listening experience.

 

[Shoaibexpert]

The Linear fast roll off filter has linear phase response with pre- and post ringing. The Minimum phase has non-linear phase response and trades the pre-ringing for a longer post-ringing.

Linear phase filter has a linear phase response which is essential for the right localization of instruments on the virtual stage, particularly with the symphonic music and live recordings. It is objectively the "right filter" but due to the unnatural pre-ringing, it could sound bright, harsh and fatiguing, especially when listening through the headphones.

Due to Minimum phase's non-linear phase response, deeper frequencies reach the ear earlier than the higher frequencies, which makes it subjectively warmer, fuller or richer sounding than the linear filter. Also in the absence of the pre-ringing, the note's attacks are cleaner and less smeared. The longer post-ringing makes a natural reverberation, which sounds more pleasant to the ear especially with dry recordings.

When listening to the studio recorded music which is anyway sampled, dubbed and post-processed, the phase linearity and the instruments localization doesn't play anymore that great role, especially when listening with the headphones. No headphones can ever recreate the real space listening experience with the loudspeakers. Some HPs use tricks to make it better out of the head experience, but generally the stage is always compromised. With the headphones being very close to the eardrum, pre-ringing of the Linear filter could be experienced as an unpleasant bright "digital" edge and that's why the ear prefers the Minimum phase's rounder approach.

Therefore IMO when listening with the headphones, the Minimum phase filter gives always more pleasant and musical experience.
When listening with the desktop loudspeakers or near field monitors for most studio, pop, rock, world music and background music, I still prefer the Minimum phase.
For real "critical" listening of symphonic classical and live jazz music through the big floor-standers, I switch the filter to the Linear Phase Fast. Sitting quite apart from the speakers in a bigger room doesn't make the linear filter nearly so bright anymore and gives me the right spatial cues.

So the short answer:
When using headphones: minimum phase
With the loudspeakers: minimum phase, with the exception of the classical symphonies and live jazz when the linear phase is preferred.

I hope. this very personal and subjective experience sheds a little light on your similar listening experience.

Thanks for the detailed response. It's clear even to a technically dumb person like myself! I've set the PCM Filter to 'Fast Minimum' just want to that's the 'minimum phase' filter you prefer on the SMSL SU-8 right? Also, if you have had any experience with the Dragonfly Red...how did you compare both DACs in musicality? Just curious. Thanks mate

 

[Shoaibexpert]

Was Fast Minimum the default setting or was it Fast Linear?

It's Fast Linear

 

[Shoaibexpert]

He's wondering if the feature's existence/implementation in itself may be causing the issue. Since it is software controlled who knows... I just don't run my SMSL SU-8 at max for my home theatre and I've not had issues. Still, I hope this is fixed and current owners are offered resolution. Highly likely the latter won't happen.

Hi just touching base on this old post. Does keeping the SMSL SU-8 volume at full into amp mean more distortion? If yes, what's the ideal volume level to keep on the DAC for minimum distortion? Also, what sound mode and PCM filters produce the best results? Thanks

 

[Shoaibexpert]

That's actually a question I too have

When going through the Sound settings, does anyone what the differences are between the Standard and Original options?

Maybe @SMSL-Mandy can elaborate?!

 

[Veri]

@Shoaibexpert please just edit your posts with follow-ups rather than making quadruple ones

 

[SMSL-Mandy]

That's actually a question I too have

Maybe @SMSL-Mandy can elaborate?!

The MAX volume is the best, and the "Fast Linear" is also the best!

 

[Shoaibexpert]

The MAX volume is the best, and the "Fast Linear" is also the best!

Thanks. Can you please let me know the difference between Standard and Original Sound mode? There's no guide or manual around it available... Also, I like Fast Minimum as Fast Linear is too bright for me on headphones. Thanks

 

[Shoaibexpert]

@Shoaibexpert please just edit your posts with follow-ups rather than making quadruple ones

Noted

 

[Veri]

Thanks. Can you please let me know the difference between Standard and Original Sound mode?

This post from amir showed some of the sound color differences
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-of-smsl-su-8-dac.3778/post-91324

The original sound is only in the 20th anniversary edition I think. All of these modes play with the distortion compensation in the ESS Sabre chip. You just need to try it out for yourself...