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Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

BAMCIS

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3 out of 3 randomly chosen is enough. Sorry, I can't do the math for you.

The measurements are actually shocking considering the many glowing reviews the Yaggi received from paid reviewers and its $2200 price tag. This throws into question the entire audiophile review publishing industry.

Freedom of speech is the freedom to say unpopular things. Amir has been banned elsewhere because he has the numbers and the machines don't lie. Another unfortunate situation and an indication of other's lack of respect for freedom of speech.
People don't want the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed
 

Frank Dernie

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People don't want the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed
So true. People prefer to believe lies that match their existing opinion rather than use the truth to change their opinion to one that is consistent with facts.
The internet has been a magnifying glass for this unfortunate state of affairs.
Fact checkers are well worth using IMHO.
 

BAMCIS

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Considering how good the Modius sounds for just $200, I can't help but think the Yggdrasil must sound better based on the cult following and much higher price, despite the bad numbers. Sort of the reverse way that the Topping D90 delivers SOTA specs but IMHO falls short of SOTA SQ. Before anyone tells me to just get the Yggdrasil the answer is no way, at least not till I hear one and at that price it better create the kind of out-of-body experience my Pass X250 did. I've heard people say if something looks bad on paper but it works great, it's great- nothing else matters.

It's a stretch to think most Yggy owners are quirky rebels looking for people to agree with them, or to write them off as obstinate 'true believers'. This year I was able to compare three DACs using ESS chips: W4S DAC2, Topping DX7 PRO, SMSL M500 v2, against the D90 in both my 2 channel rooms one with older Magnepan 3.6 the other with new Tekton Double Impacts. I used only the balanced outs of all DACs both straight to my power amps and with my Schiit Freya S, at least two weeks for each pairing to hear the same set of 40 or so CDs and endless streaming. I moved my PS Audio M700''s and Bryston 4BSST2 from each room on both speakers with the same results. The sound with the D90 was missing mid-bass and a degree of impact and punch in each system configuration. The D90 did sound slightly better in every other area than my W4S DAC 2 except bass impact, but it uses the older ESS 9018 chip. My two DACs using the 9038PRO were better everywhere except the upper mids and some of the treble, where the D90's softer sound was a little nicer in louder sessions.

I say all this because the measurements show each of these DACs (except the older DAC2, haven't seen it measured) as having 'ruler flat response'. Listening to these DACs calls the value of this measurement into question considering the D90 sounds so light from around 70 to 800 hertz. We're not parsing textures or soundstage depth here, it's 'hey, what happened to the bass?'

I do not own tube amps but I've seen them create magic many times with the right speakers. Spec wise they can't compare to the ABH2 and Mcintosh MC462. I think the Yggy is delivering with the best DS designs, maybe more, but it isn't revealed in electrical examinations. I know that's not apples to apples, but you get the idea.

College football has a 'power index ranking' that is created from a detailed evaluation of each team in over a dozen areas, on paper anyway, prior to the start of each season. This ranking rarely reflects the actual rankings at mid-season or at season's end. In football it is the performance on the field that matters. While sound is much more subjective, it is the main thing when it comes to audio equipment. What's clear is that a large number of critical listeners are hearing something special from the non-conformist Yggy that's enough to make them shell out $2,600 knowing a dozen DACs under half that price measure twice as good. Pretty cool.
 

SIY

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Considering how good the Modius sounds for just $200, I can't help but think the Yggdrasil must sound better based on the cult following and much higher price, despite the bad numbers.

Right here is a perfect example of why basic controls must be used before one can speak intelligently about the "sound" of electronics.
 

BDWoody

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Listening to these DACs calls the value of this measurement into question considering the D90 sounds so light from around 70 to 800 hertz. We're not parsing textures or soundstage depth here, it's 'hey, what happened to the bass?'

Only if that could be backed up with a valid listening test with actual controls.

I do not own tube amps but I've seen them create magic many times

Exactly... Those tubes look so magical.
 

VintageFlanker

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This year I was able to compare three DACs using ESS chips: W4S DAC2, Topping DX7 PRO, SMSL M500 v2, against the D90 in both my 2 channel rooms one with older Magnepan 3.6 the other with new Tekton Double Impacts.
Listening to these DACs calls the value of this measurement into question considering the D90 sounds so light from around 70 to 800 hertz.
Thanks for all these efforts. Now, just do all the same, under controlled listening conditions, and come back telling us your thoughts.;)
Right here is a perfect example of why basic controls must be used before one can speak intelligently about the "sound" of electronics.
I'd say even more: textbook example of expectation bias.
 
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BAMCIS

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Only if that could be backed up with a valid listening test with actual controls.



Exactly... Those tubes look so magical.
I was talking about their sound, not their appearance. Sorry If I was ambiguous there
 

Shazb0t

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I was talking about their sound, not their appearance. Sorry If I was ambiguous there
You're missing his point. Your sight can and will bias you. Everyone here is telling you that you should challenge your beliefs by conducting actual blind listening tests. If you aren't willing to do that then you should not lecture the rest of us to ignore basic science based on your subjective opinions.
 

BAMCIS

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You're missing his point. Your sight can and will bias you. Everyone here is telling you that you should challenge your beliefs by conducting actual blind listening tests. If you aren't willing to do that then you should not lecture the rest of us to ignore basic science based on your subjective opinions.
whoa, not lecturing at all. take it easy man! I only mentioned sight because I thought that's maybe what you were referring to. I don't care how ugly or sexy equipment is, heck my large ugly speakers look like doors and coffins but they won out over all the smaller speakers in my price range. AP measurements are lab research. SQ, albeit subjective, is field research. If Audio Precision numbers are anyone's panacea they are indeed biased and fooling themselves. If you find a food that tastes great why would care if anyone had a graph saying it shouldn't? THAT was a lecture. Lack of a perfect anechoic chamber or 'controls' doesn't mean that what you're hearing isn't what you're hearing. I base my opinion solely on listening, in my two well treated rooms with both samples present. I admit the last 5 DACs I bought were chosen based on ASR reviews, I say start with what SHOULD sound good. Saying something cannot sound good due to poor test results or the opposite is not 'ignoring basic science', it's ignoring reality. I don't care what anything does in a showroom or a lab if it doesn't sound better than what I already have in the environment where it will be used. Lab research indicates defects and it can predict real world performance, field research is the crucible. I haven't seen anyone with test dummy loads at the end of their cables, they really have no idea what their amplifiers are doing aside form the sound. It's impractical to test amps with 25 different speakers so we only know for sure once we are already pretty far down the river. Of course, I may have simply misunderstood you
 
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amirm

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I admit the last 5 DACs I bought were chosen based on ASR reviews, I say start with what SHOULD sound good. Saying something cannot sound good due to poor test results or the opposite is not 'ignoring basic science', it's ignoring reality.
I often dream I still working at my old job and travelling overseas. Then I wake up and realize it was all a dream. You accept this right? My "reality" was not real because it was a dream. Same is true here. Once you subject yourself to a controlled test where levels are matched and you don't know what you are listening to, then you perceive reality. Without these, you are in a dream. Refusing to wake up by conducting proper listening tests is not logical.
 

BAMCIS

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I often dream I still working at my old job and travelling overseas. Then I wake up and realize it was all a dream. You accept this right? My "reality" was not real because it was a dream. Same is true here. Once you subject yourself to a controlled test where levels are matched and you don't know what you are listening to, then you perceive reality. Without these, you are in a dream. Refusing to wake up by conducting proper listening tests is not logical.
Are you saying the dream itself about being overseas wasn't actually real or the thoughts about being overseas weren't real? That should have have been established when you awoke and found you weren't actually overseas but maybe I'm being too rigid regarding string theory, Gestalt, etc. So I should have someone else select music for testing and not tell me what it is? I suppose that would be a fresh approach on things. Now I'm second guessing even my casual listening sessions. Hopefully someone can share a tutorial with proper guidance?
 
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amirm

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Are you saying the dream itself about being overseas wasn't actually real or the thoughts about being overseas weren't real? That should have have been established when you awoke and found you weren't actually overseas but maybe I'm being too rigid regarding string theory, Gestalt, etc. So I should have someone else select music for testing and not tell me what it is? I suppose that would be a fresh approach on things. Now I'm second guessing even my casual listening sessions. Hopefully someone can share a tutorial with proper guidance?
I am saying that we all know dreams are not real. But many audiophiles don't know that they perceive sonic differences that are not real. The same brain that totally manufacturers false dreams that seem so real at the time, can manufacture false audible differences. I know. I have experienced it countless times. This is when the setup is identical, with nothing changed, yet I can perceive differences.

To test two DACs properly, you need to play a tone on both and check with a multimeter to make sure levels are the same. Then sent their output to an AB switch and feed your main system. Then have a loved one do the switching without you knowing which DAC is playing. If you can identify them you are way ahead of where you are. Once there, you can then determine which is better. To avoid lucky guesses, the testing needs to be repeated 10 times and you need to get more than 8 right.
 

Veri

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Are you saying the dream itself about being overseas wasn't actually real or the thoughts about being overseas weren't real? That should have have been established when you awoke and found you weren't actually overseas but maybe I'm being too rigid regarding string theory, Gestalt, etc. So I should have someone else select music for testing and not tell me what it is? I suppose that would be a fresh approach on things. Now I'm second guessing even my casual listening sessions. Hopefully someone can share a tutorial with proper guidance?
Amir is saying that if you know which DAC you are listening to, there is a big expectation bias as to how it will sound. And then you listen closely and think you hear some kind of subtle difference. That doesn't mean much since it's a really unreliable test.
Secondly, small variation in output level between two DACs can easily explain any and all changes. A tiny bit louder will sound better to most people. Many store demos back in the day were rigged this way.
 

BAMCIS

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I am saying that we all know dreams are not real. But many audiophiles don't know that they perceive sonic differences that are not real. The same brain that totally manufacturers false dreams that seem so real at the time, can manufacture false audible differences. I know. I have experienced it countless times. This is when the setup is identical, with nothing changed, yet I can perceive differences.

To test two DACs properly, you need to play a tone on both and check with a multimeter to make sure levels are the same. Then sent their output to an AB switch and feed your main system. Then have a loved one do the switching without you knowing which DAC is playing. If you can identify them you are way ahead of where you are. Once there, you can then determine which is better. To avoid lucky guesses, the testing needs to be repeated 10 times and you need to get more than 8 right.
That is spot on with true believers swearing they hear improvements with Nordost Odin cable, equipment racks. etc. I was hoping a DAC would at least sound as good as or hopefully slightly better than my others but in a couple of areas it was off. I worked hard for weeks to see if any combination of amps or speakers could remedy this to no avail. I'm aware of the anophenia /placebo study phenomenon and if the opposite had been going on that would be in play. Instead of imagining something was there that wasn't, there was something missing that I wanted and couldn't get. The switch back each time reaffirmed I still hadn't gotten there. Part of what was missing was what I hear guitarists as 'dirt', an aggressive grunge type sound some metal bands have. Think of switching a pre amp from passive to active (not the level increase), that's the best way I can describe the change from the D90 to the ESS DACs. The D90 did give me goose bumps on some of my favorites, compared to my ESS DACs, causing me to really consider keeping it. It had more of a 'touch the music' thing going on. Too much of my music just didn't sound right with the D90 in command, more so on the Magnepans than the Double Impacts. Could be the planars react slightly different to the 9038PRO sound. I couldn't get used to the softer 'Velvet Sound' of the D90 even though I wanted it to be the new DAC in my 'best' system. I think anyone with a pretty good system, especially Magnepans, could hear the difference doing A B jumps between the D90 and either the DX7PRO, SMSL M500 and W4S DAC-2 also. It wasn't subtle. I thought maybe the D90 needed a couple of weeks time to 'come to life' as some have written. I was the doting parent but It never changed or moved closer to the ESS DACs. I understand how we can fool ourselves into something new is 'breaking in' when it's really just us getting used to a slightly different sound and by the time we are familiar with the new sound we think the sound of gear has morphed. The AK4493 in my Modius doesn't sound soft in either of my systems at all. Now there's a 'Velvet Sound" version of it (AK4493EQ) on the loose
 

BAMCIS

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Amir is saying that if you know which DAC you are listening to, there is a big expectation bias as to how it will sound. And then you listen closely and think you hear some kind of subtle difference. That doesn't mean much since it's a really unreliable test.
Secondly, small variation in output level between two DACs can easily explain any and all changes. A tiny bit louder will sound better to most people. Many store demos back in the day were rigged this way.
Yeah, the level difference with some fixed output DACs is easy to hear with pre amp. I was always dubious of the 'standard' output level. My older PS Audio Digital Link iii wa clearly louder than both my Benchmark DACs in fixed mode when I was switching between them on the XLR inputs on my main pre amp. I will say the D90 had a more relaxed sound up as loud as I could handle than did my others when running straight with power amps. It was either a little cleaner or quieter, not sure which would contribute to that. Who knows, I may end up getting another D90 since I'm about to get the Tekton Moabs. My Magnepan 3.6 have a lot of mileage / moves on them and I'm not dropping almost $7K on the 3.7i to have basically the same pair of speakers. The $3,500 Moabs are a bargain by comparison, no sub matching/placement issues either. Some members are telling me that neither I nor anyone can possibly perceive even the most subtle differences in DACs, even in the most incredibly controlled unrealistic bio-weapon laboratory setting imaginable (paraphrasing). If that's true, then it also brings into question the importance of measurements, am I right? If we'll never pick up any SQ differences in our crude mancaves then what's 5 or 6 db in SINAD? I was going to comment on the haughty assertions by a few ideologues but for decorum I shan't.
AAA dreyfus.jpg
 

BDWoody

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Some members are telling me that neither I nor anyone can possibly perceive even the most subtle differences in DACs, even in the most incredibly controlled unrealistic bio-weapon laboratory setting imaginable

I believe the point most are making is that you won't know what you are hearing if you don't implement basic listening controls. That's just the reality of the complicated mechanism of hearing. Nothing personal.

It seems as though you believe you don't need them, for some reason. Maybe it's because no one out in audiophool land uses them? Maybe consider why that is...

There are many of us that would be willing to bet substantial $$$ that the differences you claim would disappear just as fast as most posters do when they are challenged to either put up or shut up.

It can be scary to face the unknown, especially when there is so much invested in a completely different analysis model.

Give it an honest try... It may save you a lot of time, money and anxiety about what you are missing. Or, don't...but either way, paragraphs are your friends.
 

BAMCIS

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Nothing personal? You really make everyone else here sound smarter. I don't tell others how or what to think, or show contempt towards an alternative point of view, give that an honest try...

'Put up or shut up'? Who talks like that? Are you in a a high school parking lot? Most inappropriate.

In your effort to dissect everything (tubes looked magic?) make knee-jerk assumptions and read between the lines you may not have understood what I'm saying. I put a new DAC in my main 2 channel system and didn't like the resultant changes to the sound.

No snarky condescension or pretentious trope is going to change that fact.

I literally unplugged a variable volume DAC (DX-7 Pro) from in between my transport and power amps and replaced it with a new volume controlled DAC (D90) in the same configuration, using the same cables, listening to my same demo CDs in a dedicated two channel listening room 5 years in the making. You're not only telling me the DAC couldn't have sounded different but I apparently couldn't have even known it sounded different... because why exactly?

There is some truth in your premise but your conclusion is absurd.

If you need hyper exotic conditions to hear any differences in the sound of DACs, pre amps or amplifiers, there's a cute system at Best Buy with your name on it. 30 years of this hobby and almost every brand extant have taught me some amps and pre amps sound similar, most don't. The sound of sub $1,500 delta-sigma type DACs is pretty close, at least with the dozen I've had over the last few years. Metacognition is something you may want to think about
 

SIY

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Lack of basic controls is not "an alternative point of view," it's just plain and simple wrong. Basic controls: double blind and level-matched. Without those, you're playing make-believe. That seems harsh, but basic truth often is.

It's a pity that an entire business segment of the audio market counts on and encourages ignorance and gullibility in its target consumers, but nonetheless, it exists and is a wonderful playground for dishonest people who exploit that for profit. The people playing in this space are skilled manipulators, and take comfort that you're not the only one who has been seduced.
 

Soniclife

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Nothing personal? You really make everyone else here sound smarter.
You take offence at a perceived personal insult, and then follow directly on with one of your own.
The point being made is you haven't done a controlled listening test. Without one you won't be taken seriously, the more paragraphs of not so thinly veiled insults the less you will be taken seriously.
Go away and do the ears only tests, if you find something that contradicts the science / measurements we will be fascinated.
 
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