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Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I've linked you authoritative perceptual research that falsify Moffat's claims. Your insinuations are denialist and thoroughly anti-intellectual. Are you suggesting your hearing does not conform to facts of human physiology?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #983
What is audio without fun?
We let our ears be the judge. It is the rest of our anatomy that we keep in check.
Remember, we rely on decades of audio research and in my case, extensive amount of audio evaluation when my livelihood depended on being right. Yours, is fantasies that don't hurt you but cost you deerly in your pocketbook. Instead of wasting money on gear that does nothing good, consider using that money to buy more music, better food, vacation with loved ones, etc. Don't put your head in the sand.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #984
Let me say that we all know that with every ounce of your body you believe what you think you are hearing. But it is not real. This is the part that makes no sense but is true.
Watch this video on how easy it is for us to walk away with the wrong cause and effect about our bodily function:
The audio industry takes advantage of so many consumers this way.
Jimster480
Major Contributor
All of the things you just mentioned are just fake marketing words used by people scamming you out of your hardearned green.
Soundstage and instrument separataion are due to speaker placement and recording quality. In headphones it is sometimes simulated with frequency roll-off but otherwise it comes out in live recordings that were recorded and mixed properly (with multiple mics &/ instrument hookups).
Things like "tone" and "texture" are just recording quality and speaker quality stuff once again. Either your DAC resolves the music or it doesnt (yggdrasil barely resolves 16 bits so everything you mentioned would be false compared to other DACs).
"Presence and air" are 2 words that have 0 linking to the real world. If by "air" you mean "background noise" then you are talking about an elevated soundstage. Headphones can sound "airy" if they are open back and as such you have an elevated background noise level from things around you. This is not something provided by a DAC unless its resolution is so crappy that it creates a fake elevated background noise that causes your microdetails to be consumed by distortion (typically possible with poorly designed products such as most Schiit products).
If you wish to debate science on a scientific forum; you should probably use some science to combat our findings rather than pure marketing terms made up by people who are paid to do reviews.
It’s a source of amazement that those who most loudly proclaim “trust your ears” are also those who most steadfastly insist on needing their eyes open in order to do so.
Jimster480
Major Contributor
I tested your theory; actually before I even knew 1/10th of what I knew now. I bought into the multibit hype and purchased a Modi Multibit as an "upgrade" to my Topping D30.... to my surprise the Modi Multibit sounded like utter garbage compared to my Topping D30.
The microdetails of songs were gone, and the tonality of instruments was off for instruments like the saxaphone... Additionally the piano sounded like it was veiled...
I asked on Headfi and was greeted with walls of shit-spew by other "audiophiles" who claimed to have all the answers. I was new and as such I followed the different guides... I left the Modi Multibit burning in for literally 1 week..... came back and it still sounded just as bad as it did before.
Then I contacted schiit and had it replaced because they told me that "it must be defective".... so I waited another week+ for a replacement and it also sounded just the same as the first one.
At this time now people on headfi were actually ANGRY WITH ME for having issues with this DAC.... swearing that "its the best sounding DAC in this price range" and others telling me that I need to "upgrade to the high end if I want improvement". Plenty of others were telling me that I didn't know what I was listening to and that a Topping D30 couldn't possibly sound better.
Infact the FiiO K1 I had also sounded better than the Modi Multibit (provided it was with a headphone that could be powered by it) and thats a $40 dongle-like DAC/Amp.
So at this point in time the guys from Schiit literally tried to claim that "my house had poor power" or that my "USB interface was affecting the DAC" so I literally went and bought an SMSL xUSB and I also actually brought the stack with me on vacation to a hotel... I tried the setup at my house, my grandparents house, my parents house and on vacation. It sounded like crap everywhere I plugged it in.... the xUSB helped with performance a bit (it removed these annoying TICK sounds that would happen during quieter parts of tracks, but otherwise it was still inferior to the Topping D30).
After literally wasting weeks following audiophile shit-spew; I gave up on this crappy DAC and I sold it to someone else who then said it "was fine" and they were upgrading from onboard audio.
This saga of problems with schiit started a tyrade that eventually ended up with me being banned from Head-Fi for not supporting Schiit since "they are a partner" and by recommending Topping and SMSL gear in threads over Schiit gear I was "recommending unproven gear and steering people in the wrong direction".
After a bunch of whiney comments from admins on Headfi and even Jason contacting me personally and offering to refund me all the money I've spent on Schiit products in exchange for me being quiet about the issues.... Jude put my account on permanent moderation.
Fast forward some months (as I was looking around for another audio forum to join, and SBAF just looked like pure cancer) I found this wonderful forum. And alas..... this forum did measurements! After having a nice conversation with Amir I sent him some gear to measure and by that time I think I had upgraded to the Topping DX7. He compared the Topping D30 vs the Modi Multibit and found that the Modi Multibit literally could barely resolve 12 bits of audio where the D30 would resolve 16-18 bits (later I believe he retested it to find that it did 19-20 bits over USB).
Moral of the story is that if a noob audiophile like me could literally HEAR THE DIFFERENCE between a crappy product like the Modi Multibit and a decently engineered one like the Topping D30.... there is no reason that anyone should be "drinking the coolaid".
Now admittedly it would be alot more difficult (if not impossible in many cases) to hear the difference between the Schiit Yggdrasil and a Topping D30 (because yggdrasil can resolve around 16 bits which is enough for most music) but I mean.... I think not being able to hear the difference is enough to expose Yggdrasil as a scam considering that its ~20x more than the D30.
Like my original post mentioned; return/sell your yggdrasil and Upgrade to a Topping D50, DX7, SMSL SU-8, JDS OL DAC, Grace SDAC, Khadas Tone board, etc....
If you must have balanced than a Topping D70, DX7s/DX7 Pro or SMSL Su-8 or VMV D1 or RME ADI or Benchmark DAC3 or even the geshelli Enog2 Pro.
I can promise you that you will be happy with your purchase (unless you make a point not to be) and your sonic fidelity will be improved. We have proved it with science
I'm sure you're right here, but this is definitely measurable with a microphone and a software like REW or a similar setup; it's about the sound-waves separation between the two channels for human voice frequencies, but also for mid-to-trebles too . It's most likely related to the wave-guides and wave-angles of both midrange and tweeters that define the final soundstage. With a bit of toe-in and acoustic panel soundstage increases with most speakers.
Feel free to read few articles here:
- https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/optimizing-the-soundstage-with-speaker-placement/
- https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/instant-soundstage-improvement/
I'm sure the Orion are great speakers and probably with a better soundstagethan others due to the way they're built and I like the know-how and measurements from their website too. Also, on https://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion++.htm we can clearly see the wavelength and angles vs. attenuation, but also how the waves are bouncing from the walls, so quite easy to understand where to place the acoustic panels inside the room to increase the soundstage even more. Of course, we can completely isolate the space between the two speakers with acoustic panels up to our listener position and we'll get a soundstage similar with the one from the headphones.
With Schiit it is personal. So many years of headfi praise without real measurements. Plus Moffat coming here to troll.
But like Amir said Modi3 and Magni 3 are not half bad. It's just their more expensive fancy products are not there yet.
So many years of headfi praise without real measurements. Plus Moffat coming here to troll.But like Amir said Modi3 and Magni 3 are not half bad. It's just their more expensive fancy products are not there yet.
MustBeDeaf
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2019
- Messages
- 25
- Likes
- 22
Can you please link the threads to where he has posted? I am surprised he registered on this forum.
Interesting news! Schiit has put up the AP555 report of the Ygdrassil (v2). I think this is a good thing. This was one of the critiques on this forum was that Schiit wasn't putting up their own measurements. So here they are.
https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/PDF/Schiit DAC APx555 Standard Test Suite_ Yggdrasil Analog 2_Gen 5.pdf
It does show that the Ygdrassil has multiple distortion spikes like in Amir's tests. However when comparing the two The Schiit AP measurements are quite a bit cleaner than Amir's showing less noise overall.
The Schiit products use non switching transformers which may react differently to Power noise contamination than switching transformers. I've noticed a lot of these dacs tested use switching PS. Though I appreciate that all devices should be designed to handle noise for real world use, different power supplies handle them in different ways with different trade offs. In an experiment, I think the measurable variables need to be controlled for. This way you can better match other AP machines. So it's a bit simplistic to say that it simply needs to handle the noise in testing. All PS aren't made the same. Switching PS produce ultrasonic noise but do well with 60 hz hums while non switchers produce 60hz hums. So clean power/signals would be important for reproductible results over different AP's to remain consistent and above reproach.
Now I of course don't KNOW if there was any power containmation as we don't have any measurements or specs on the power used. So if possible, I would encourage @amirm to show his lab supplies/ power measurements of his AC to show that there are no issues there.
The linearity plot is different on page 24. (It's not Jude's measurement which Amir objected to, this one was performed Oct 8 2019). Using Amir's new linearity spec of +/-0.5 db the Ygdrassil remains linear till about 115-117 db but is still at about -1 db deviation till 130 db where it encounters a blip of about 2db and then returns to 1db at -140db. That's a good bit more than the 16 bits that I see on Amir's linearity graph where he uses perfect linearity rather than his new standard of 0.5 db.
However something I don't understand is that with all those noise spikes, they are getting, their SNR and THD+N is still quite good. The AP shows the SNR as 115 and 118 for channels 1 and 2 with a THD+N of 0.003582.
I know SINAD is different but Amir's SINAD shows 86db. So how does the Yggy get 115 db if it's distortion products are still a good bit higher than 115?
https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/PDF/Schiit DAC APx555 Standard Test Suite_ Yggdrasil Analog 2_Gen 5.pdf
It does show that the Ygdrassil has multiple distortion spikes like in Amir's tests. However when comparing the two The Schiit AP measurements are quite a bit cleaner than Amir's showing less noise overall.
The Schiit products use non switching transformers which may react differently to Power noise contamination than switching transformers. I've noticed a lot of these dacs tested use switching PS. Though I appreciate that all devices should be designed to handle noise for real world use, different power supplies handle them in different ways with different trade offs. In an experiment, I think the measurable variables need to be controlled for. This way you can better match other AP machines. So it's a bit simplistic to say that it simply needs to handle the noise in testing. All PS aren't made the same. Switching PS produce ultrasonic noise but do well with 60 hz hums while non switchers produce 60hz hums. So clean power/signals would be important for reproductible results over different AP's to remain consistent and above reproach.
Now I of course don't KNOW if there was any power containmation as we don't have any measurements or specs on the power used. So if possible, I would encourage @amirm to show his lab supplies/ power measurements of his AC to show that there are no issues there.
The linearity plot is different on page 24. (It's not Jude's measurement which Amir objected to, this one was performed Oct 8 2019). Using Amir's new linearity spec of +/-0.5 db the Ygdrassil remains linear till about 115-117 db but is still at about -1 db deviation till 130 db where it encounters a blip of about 2db and then returns to 1db at -140db. That's a good bit more than the 16 bits that I see on Amir's linearity graph where he uses perfect linearity rather than his new standard of 0.5 db.
However something I don't understand is that with all those noise spikes, they are getting, their SNR and THD+N is still quite good. The AP shows the SNR as 115 and 118 for channels 1 and 2 with a THD+N of 0.003582.
I know SINAD is different but Amir's SINAD shows 86db. So how does the Yggy get 115 db if it's distortion products are still a good bit higher than 115?
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When I first was buying hifi there wasn't really any subjective reviewing. The experts measured equipment and only made listening comment if there was an oddity and they wanted to know if it was audible.
Back then a powerful amplifier had 8 watts and 1% distortion was state of the art.
Then, about 10 or 15 years later there were a few reviewers gaining traction who just listened and commented and, usually, had neither the equipment nor the knowledge to measure anything anyway.
Once this took off any Tom, Dick or Harry could become a reviewer, and they did.
I swallowed it myself and told people if there was a sound difference which didn't show up in the measurements then one was simply measuring the wrong parameters. That was probably 20+ years ago.
We are actually able to measure all the parameters effecting the SQ of low level electronics today, so that statement is no longer true (though personally I believe we still don't for speakers and power amps).
Around 10 years ago I tried a blind comparison between several DACs, all fairly expensive, from £1400 to £14000. As soon as I didn't know which was playing the differences I thought were there vanished. It wasobviously all placebo effect and/or expectation bias.
Once you get a bit more experience of hifi I don't doubt you will realise how naive and un-knowledgeable you are now.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #994
There are no issues as evidence by countless other DACs that have performed well on my bench. Also keep in mind that the dismal performance of Yggdrasil came about in three separate measurements: one at my place, one at our audiophile society meeting place, and the third, at an audiophile friend's house.
I am confident Schiit has made software and hardware changes to the product without admitting such. This was clearly obvious when the tested unit in this thread went back to them and they immediately upgraded it and posted measurement different than mine.
They really need to fix the lack of transparency here. They are doing better on engineering front but still have a ways to go the reputation front.
You're right about the running changes. Schiit just posted a new product, the "Yggdrasil GS", which recycles the gen A1 analog boards. They confirm on the product page and FAQ that at some point they silently upgraded the firmware, and they've now started explicitly selling an upgraded firmware ROM for people who have the A1 boards but not the new firmware.
I think you may end up being disappointed about their engineering progress on DACs though. IMD on the new Bifrost 2 is sky-high. I'm guessing it keels over completely on the 32-tone IMD test.
I totally get you man. The main point is that you enjoy listening to music with the unit. You don't have to prove anything to people on here.
There is nothing dubious about silent upgrades. I don’t think that damages their reputation. As for the updating firmware prior to testing I don’t know what to say. Perhaps it could have been handled better there. If you squint it could be looked at as trying to game the measurements. But you could also look at it as updating an old unit to current specs (which is something they do when things come in for unrelated service) and not thinking much further about the implications. I don’t think they did that while hiding it so I would chalk it up to an oops moment.
As for the countless dacs that do indeed perform well... how many use non switching power supplies?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #998
Of course it does when they claim the upgraded hardware/software is the same as units shipped without them. You don't fix a problem and then claim the problem was never there. This is dishonest and screws the current owners in addition.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #999
What? I tested this unit. Owner sends it back to them and they say they upgraded the firmware first before measuring it. Yet they claim they don't know what version of the firmware was in the unit to start. This smells good to you? Why did they upgrade anything before measuring it first?
Well since they admitted that they did, I would chalk that up to an oops moment. But I can certainly understand why you wouldn't. I would have asked for it back so that you can re-run tests and see if it matches.
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