Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

[Deleted member 65]

Amir, please. Did you honestly expect Schiit to publish measurement results confirming yours? Come on. Did anyone, on either camp, expect a different outcome? Really?

@Alcophone , we seem to have different expectations on honesty. I'm sure you'll set things straight on "the other forum".

 

[Alcophone]

Remember that Jason merely said he would like to take a look, and of course I won't say no to that, especially since Schiit covered the cost and provided a loaner. I did not initiate that, and I would feel like I'm overstepping by requesting all kinds of customizations of their measurement approach. Moreover, Jason is a busy man. So of course he only ran the measurement routine they had already set up and are considering using to publish more detailed measurements of their products, as he mentioned on Head-Fi. It's unreasonable to assume that he would spend a significant amount of time catering to this particular case.

They simply wanted to make sure it's not defective in any way. So a technician performed that check, and, as is probably routine, made sure it has the latest firmware, etc. At that point the damage was done. Determining the previous firmware after overwriting it is at best possible with advanced forensic tools, I'm assuming. There was no need for Amir to save me from believing that it's impossible to read a ROM, since Schiit never claimed that.

Here's what Jason wrote:

Here’s the problem: while our technician didn’t find any operational problems with the Yggy, he also went ahead and made sure it was up to current spec. This included rewriting the ROM on the DSP board. So, now we don’t know what version of firmware you had. It should be the same as the current version, but we didn’t start coding and stickering the ROMs until late February. So, it’s possible it had the wrong ROM in it. Yes, shame on us. Now, at best we look like idiots. Sigh.

Now, the provided measurements are good enough for comparison. No glaring linearity issues, no 300 Hz droop for the singled ended output - something's obviously very different. Whether the difference is due to the potential DSP change or something with either party's measurements cannot be said for certain at this point. Of course I would like to see Schiit try older firmware versions that may have been used with my unit, but that's laborious and probably not a wise allocation of resources for a company.

Now, was it indeed an accident or a sinister conspiracy? We could try and find out. Amir could measure my Yggy again. My bet is that he would get the same results as before. His apparently is that Schiit fixed the DSP to no longer do truncation. I have been busy experimenting with WAV files that I generate, but there's some more work to do before I can share more. But at least I can see where Amir's coming from, truncating signed integers in two complement's form leads to linearity deviations that seem to oscillate similar in nature to what we can see in Amir's measurements.

Of course there's a small problem with that theory. About two years before the first Analog 2 Yggy ever shipped, Mike Moffat, the madman/genius behind the Yggy, wrote this:

In Yggy, Gumby, and Bimby all trailing bits are rounded at 20, 18, and 16 bits respectively - not truncated which introduces errors.

<sarcasm>No idea how he figured that out all without Amir's help, but somehow he did.</sarcasm>

Of course that doesn't rule out some screwup with accidentally flashing wrong firmware versions. But I don't see why Schiit would deliberately send truncating firmware out to customers and rounding firmware to reviewers.

It also doesn't rule out something truncating before it hits the DAC.

So, as before, I will remain agnostic as to what really happened. I simply don't know for sure, and everything else is speculation based on biases. Others seem to have that covered, so no need for me to engage in that same kind of story writing.

Sorry about the confusion when I wrote that probably nobody is surprised by Schiit's results not matching Amir's. It seemed like this was a passionate battle between people who think that of course Amir did something wrong, and people who think that of course Schiit is paying both Jude and Bob handsomely to provide canned results.

The more nuanced people haven't been as loud, so I suppose some were indeed surprised. I didn't mean to imply anything about either Amir or Schiit with that particular statement.

 

[gvl]

I saw that Mike's comment about rounding before. I tend to think rounding isn't that much better than truncation.

 

[Alcophone]

I saw that Mike's comment about rounding before. I tend to think rounding isn't that much better than truncation.

There's also this post by Mike Moffat:

[...]
Dither is added digital noise which we added a bit more of to the Yggy 2.
[...]

 

[gvl]

There's also this post by Mike Moffat:

Right, better later than never...

 

[amirm]

They simply wanted to make sure it's not defective in any way. So a technician performed that check, and, as is probably routine, made sure it has the latest firmware, etc. At that point the damage was done. Determining the previous firmware after overwriting it is at best possible with advanced forensic tools, I'm assuming. There was no need for Amir to save me from believing that it's impossible to read a ROM, since Schiit never claimed that.

Oh? Why did they need to open the unit at all? Why did they need to update the firmware?

Their promise was to check and see if there is anything wrong *with your unit*. They should have tested it as is, before any modifications.

Their action -- modifying your unit -- confirms 100% that the unit you have is not the same as what they wanted it to be. Either they have updated the firmware, boards, or whatever for everyone. Or just for units being tested such as yours.

You were so strict with me in how you wanted your unit tested. Why on earth would you go along with them not testing your unit as it was? Isn't that the dispute? That either the unit was different or my measurements were wrong? Yet you happily go along with some vague statement from Schiit on a new ROM?

Why didn't you ask them what was fixed in this new ROM versus previous one?

Why didn't you ask them why they did not have a release process where they know what was shipped in every unit?

As I said to you in my private message, if you wanted to just believe a line from Schiit, you shouldn't have bothered to have me test your DAC. The whole point of me testing it was to get to objective and independent data, not just believing what the manufacturer does, or two people with direct connection with company showed in their measurements. But here you go with, "oh they were too busy so I didn't want to ask them much." Really?

I can assure you they were not too busy or they would not rip apart your unit for no reason and update its firmware. The Yggy is a pain in the neck to open. They did not put their techs through that work unless they felt they 100% needed to get in there to fix things.

Bottom line is the same: you had me as a resource to help reason through what they were telling you to get to the truth. You didn't do that and instead have joined the other side in putting a negative light on testing I have done here. It is not right or proper.

 

[amirm]

There's also this post by Mike Moffat:

"This is not to say that digital or analog noise is a good thing in excess. Dither is added digital noise which we added a bit more of to the Yggy 2. The thing was it made it sound quieter and measure much better. Go figure. That’s why Yggys resolve the very low level info they do, and more so as the systems get better. "

He added more of? More than what? Earlier units shipped? His post is in March of this year. What was that change made? Just when he wrote that post or months earlier?

Statement at face value is wrong anyway. The amount of dither is driven by mathematics. It is not like salt where you keep pouring more on it until it tastes good. TPDF dither should have been used which dictates the dither and its distribution.

 

[garbulky]

I think we may be overthinking things here....

 

[Grave]

The performance is pretty crap in either set of measurements, so I think that the point is moot. Jude's past actions have been unethical in everything that I have seen him do over at head-fi (banning or censoring people in order to protect his sponsors), so personally I would not trust his measurements or literally anything he says.

Oh, this is actually about Schiit's measurements. Sorry. Well then, why would you trust the measurements of the company trying to make money off of you? The measurements that came with the Topping D30 and A30 I bought look excellent, but I am still looking forward to Amir's measurements of the Topping A30 so I can see if Topping is actually being honest about them. Blindly believing the manufacturer is idiotic. I took a quick look at Schiit's measurements and they seem similar to Amir's to me. They have the same -80 dB distortion. Reading further, Amir's explanation of the differences in his measurements and Schiit's measurements makes sense to me. Schiit is obviously being dishonest in the way that they measure this DAC in that they are comparing apples to oranges. I am not surprised.

Earlier in this thread I said that the performance is not so bad, but really, if a DAC does not have distortion and noise below 96 dB (CD quality) in 2018, then this is pretty sad. Like I have said before, even the outdated $100 ODAC has better performance. Schiit products are obviously garbage.

 

[digititus]

Moreover, Jason is a busy man. So of course he only ran the measurement routine they had already set up and are considering using to publish more detailed measurements of their products, as he mentioned on Head-Fi. It's unreasonable to assume that he would spend a significant amount of time catering to this particular case

No. This was a wonderful PR opportunity provided to Schiit. Very busy Jason must love you! Confirmation bias is a marketeers dream.

 

[tranq]

These threads need more talk about music, cats, whisky, coffee, beer, wine, food, etc. I wonder where I can find that. So much angry science talk, my tiny brain hurts. I hope everyone is at least listening to their favorite music while railing against one position or the other. I usually rail against ignorance is bliss, but on occasions like this I'm glad my audio understanding and proportional audio nervosa is low.

 

[Blumlein 88]

These threads need more talk about music, cats, whisky, coffee, beer, wine, food, etc. I wonder where I can find that. So much angry science talk, my tiny brain hurts. I hope everyone is at least listening to their favorite music while railing against one position or the other. I usually rail against ignorance is bliss, but on occasions like this I'm glad my audio understanding and proportional audio nervosa is low.

Once you have good measures and know your gear is performing at a high level, then you forget about anything other than using your gear and enjoying it. We don't fret over whether next month's wonder unit will provide something exceptional. Don't have to re-evaluate our hearing of our current gear to be continually on the prowl for the next big thing. Don't need to wonder if we need a better cable, a better or different power supply. Do your due diligence at the proper time and everything can be very blissful.

 

[tranq]

Good advice.

 

[Ron Party]

Hi Tranq.

I enjoy reading the contributions of the very intelligent members of this forum. Based on that knowledge and objectively verifiable information, I purchased a Topping D50. That might have been the best couple of hundred dollars I've spent over the many, many years in this hobby. Currently I'm using it to listen to the new Robert Glasper album under the artist name R+R=Now, Collagically Speaking, on Mark Seaton's speakers. Phenomenal!

And, oh, I'm not angry.

 

[amirm]

These threads need more talk about music, cats, whisky, coffee, beer, wine, food, etc. I wonder where I can find that.

We have a whole music subforum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?forums/music-reviews-and-discussions.18/

We also have a bunch of fun videos and discussions here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?forums/fun-topics-videos-etc.12/

I see a thread from Rod on coffee there.

Thomas started a beer thread: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/beer-thread-what-you-drinkin.1273/

Here is a thread on food I created a while back: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-food.895/

We have nothing on cats because I am a dog person.

I encourage members to contribute to these non-science threads and forums. Life gets boring if all we talk about is gear.

 

[Alcophone]

Oh? Why did they need to open the unit at all?

To check that the unit is in working order. Much easier to check for circuit issues without a thick layer of aluminum in front of your eyes, I imagine.

Why did they need to update the firmware?

To make sure the unit is up to spec, as they do in warranty cases.

Their promise was to check and see if there is anything wrong *with your unit*. They should have tested it as is, before any modifications.

Correct. But they messed up. Hence Jason writing "Now, at best we look like idiots." The technician treated it like any other warranty case, it seems. He should have been clued in on the significance of this particular unit. Maybe he was, but went through the motions as usual. Happens all the time. Sucks, but it's over now. Also sucks that you turned off the Yggy without ever remeasuring jitter. Also over now.

Their action -- modifying your unit -- confirms 100% that the unit you have is not the same as what they wanted it to be.

Don't you hate it when you type "asr" into your browser's location bar, and end up at Audio Speculation Review?

You were so strict with me in how you wanted your unit tested. Why on earth would you go along with them not testing your unit as it was?

Email from Jason, August 1st:

Cool, I will have a look at it. Most likely tomorrow[...]

Next email from Jason, August 2nd:

[...]while our technician didn’t find any operational problems with the Yggy, he also went ahead and made sure it was up to current spec. This included rewriting the ROM on the DSP board.[...]

Did you expect me to physically guard my unit or how does the above constitute me going along with anything? I found out after the fact. It's not even in Schiit's interest to do it this way, so obviously that wasn't the plan.

Is it possible that they actually measured it first and are lying about it? Sure. Though they wouldn't have had a guarantee that you don't re-measure the unit after they fix it, and get different results than before. That wouldn't look good, wouldn't it? So it would be a risky move.

Isn't that the dispute? That either the unit was different or my measurements were wrong? Yet you happily go along with some vague statement from Schiit on a new ROM?

You're right. I should have thrown a tantrum, like a grown-up.

Why didn't you ask them what was fixed in this new ROM versus previous one?

Basic reading comprehension suggests that there was no point in asking that question:

So, now we don’t know what version of firmware you had. It should be the same as the current version

Why didn't you ask them why they did not have a release process where they know what was shipped in every unit?

What am I, a history writer? He already mentioned that they have started doing that at some point after my unit shipped:

we didn’t start coding and stickering the ROMs until late February

Why hasn't every rocket in history been reusable? Seems so obvious now, doesn't it.

As I said to you in my private message, if you wanted to just believe a line from Schiit, you shouldn't have bothered to have me test your DAC.

And what is it that I supposedly did "just believe"? Initially it seemed like you thought that they claimed that it's impossible to read a ROM, and that I believed that. But, again, that was not the claim.

The whole point of me testing it was to get to objective and independent data,

Independent, probably. But you're hardly objective. As soon as some measurement doesn't look great, you're happy to bash the DUT's creator. That's an understandable first instinct, but your second, overriding instinct should be to double and triple check that there's nothing wrong on your end. Instead, that seems to be a rhetorical question to you.

not just believing what the manufacturer does, or two people with direct connection with company showed in their measurements. But here you go with, "oh they were too busy so I didn't want to ask them much." Really?

Yeah, really. Honestly, I was trying to get Jude or Bob to measure it, since to you the only acceptable response from Schiit would have been to confirm your findings and admit incompetence. Everything else you'll find a way to spin into a conspiracy anyway. While somewhat entertaining, it's hardly science. Anyway, there was nothing to be gained by being a pain in the rear to Schiit. I would rather not get fired as their customer, I happen to like some of their products, this one in particular.

With Jude and Bob, I would have talked at length about what to measure. As with you, I would have been the requester. But in Schiit's case, they requested the unit to check for defects, presumably to reassure themselves, and maybe me. I didn't even expect them to run a full measurement suite, let alone them sending me a detailed report (with more documentation about the parameters than you ever provide, Mr. Critic).

Do you expect the measurements with USB to suddenly match your linearity results? Nothing you measured indicated that the interface is an issue, apart from the clock running slightly faster with USB.

The easy way out for them would have been to claim the DAC is defective, causing the bad results. Alas, they claim the DAC that measured so poorly for you was fully functional this whole time, and probably had the same firmware as it does now. As far as cover-ups go, that one would be a pretty dumb attempt.

I can assure you they were not too busy or they would not rip apart your unit for no reason and update its firmware. The Yggy is a pain in the neck to open. They did not put their techs through that work unless they felt they 100% needed to get in there to fix things.

[citation needed]

Bottom line is the same: you had me as a resource to help reason through what they were telling you to get to the truth. You didn't do that and instead have joined the other side in putting a negative light on testing I have done here. It is not right or proper.

And here I thought I could read an email and post measurements to a thread you subscribe to, all by myself. Thank you, Amir, for offering to explain the world to me!

If I have joined any sides recently, then it's that of the subjectivists. The Yggdrasil sounds much more enjoyable to me than the DX7s. Maybe that makes me crazy! Or maybe you don't know everything there is to know about audio. See how I'm not saying it must be because your measurements are wrong? There's enough overlap to suggest that you at least do some things right. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered sending you the most expensive thing I own.
Otherwise, as said, I'm agnostic about what actually happened. There's simply not enough evidence here to draw a definitive conclusion.

But I don't think there's any more negative light on your results than there was before. The only major negative thing that's new is your little heat gun stunt. But that one is all on you.

It's my DAC, Amir. Our cooperation started with you agreeing to my terms and ended with you sending it back. I don't know why you expect me to treat you like the arbiter of truth. You're way too biased for that role, anyway.

I don't think this going anywhere, though. So this will be my last post on the subject. I hope you find a way to move on.

 

[Grave]

Amir has only measured three of these things. That seems extremely thorough to me. If the Yggdrasil sounds better to you than the DX7s, then this is probably just the placebo effect. You seem to be insinuating that the measurements magically do not matter instead of saying that they are wrong, so yes, that would make you a subjectivist, which is not a good thing to be. It is synonymous with ignoramus. It seems obvious what happened here to me. Schiit has been dishonest. They made no effort to measure the same thing as Amir.

 

[derp1n]

It is absolutely trivial to verify the existing software version on the DSP card before reprogramming. The fact they didn't do so speaks volumes.

 

[tranq]

I will say this about Schiit, I'm a bit of a self professed fanboy. I find Mike hilarious, and I like his music recommendations. Jason seems to have a fair mix of candor and humble showmanship (yes it's an oxymoron, read his writings, it holds water).

All that said, I'm at odds with their QC. It's relatively minor and nitpicky stuff, but it bugged me on both items I own. My Magni 3 has a volume pot that is slightly off center from a certain view point it's not mounted squarely, leaving uneven gaps in the opening of the case. There is also one screw on top that was over tightened or overtorqued as it has a faint widening/striping on one point. It's noticeable visually, and I can feel it with my finger. The Modi Multibit has a slightly different finish and silk screening then the Magni 3. I like the modi Multibit finish better, but am not happy they are different, and they were bought 4 months apart or so. There is something else I found with the Mimby, but it was so minor I can't recall what it was now.

I'm used to companies where QC inspectors reject imperfect screws and other blemishes. But some of those companies make items costing 500k, so I'm trying to temper expectations with the realities of cost and people being people.

All that being said, I can still like their products but wish they had better QC and uniformity.

It does make a person wonder what else is being missed, but thankfully their warranty and customer service help calm such fears, somewhat.

 

[n2it]

If the Yggdrasil sounds better to you than the DX7s, then this is probably just the placebo effect. You seem to be insinuating that the measurements magically do not matter instead of saying that they are wrong, so yes, that would make you a subjectivist, which is not a good thing to be. It is synonymous with ignoramus.

Not sure there was any great conspiracy, but it is a shame that Schitt did not test prior.

But why attack someone's opinion? That seems like a very subjective reaction. Human perception is not black and white and is not really something that can be measured like a physical property. Do you like the taste of Pepsi or Coke. Pepsi has 150 calories per 12 fl oz, Coke has 140. Coke objectively measures better in terms of calories. If you like Pepsi, you must be an ignoramus ... (full disclosure, I am a recovering diet Coke addict - I have been diet Coke free for nearly 7 months - and in the non-diet realm I prefer the taste of Coke over Pepsi)

As for placebo effect - I think the better term is bias. By the way - how did you determine that Alcophone's perception was a result of bias? That seems like a very subjective assessment.