Review and Measurements of Schiit Jotunheim and iFi iDSD Black Label DACs and Headphone Amps

[IdiotCustomer]

As a bit of an idiot when it comes to computers, I've always wondered about this. Is there generally any advantage to the Intels and Nvidias etc? Or do the cheaper competitors generally perform just as well? (Maybe too vague a question, I realise,)

It really depends on what you want to do with it. Gaming vs editing etc. Nvidia and Intel both have the greatest market share in their respective field. For a couple of years Intel cpu:s were quite a bit ahead of AMD and vice versa for Nvidia with their gpu:s. AMD have stepped up their cpu game with Ryzen which made them able to compete again. To get a sense of the difference if you're interested I recommend the Linus Tech forum, guru3d, techpowerup. On YouTube you can find a lot of different comparisons from lots of different channels. I will try to find a good article but in the meantime have this test from Swedish publication sweclockers
https://sweclockers.com/test/23481-nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-ti/5
Sorry for the Swedish but you can see the performance differences of some gpu:s

Another one for cpu:s
https://sweclockers.com/test/24482-intel-core-i7-8700k-i5-8600k-och-i3-8350k-coffee-lake/17

 

[andreasmaaan]

That's really helpful @IdiotCustomer, thanks

And yeh, one of the reasons I asked was that I recalled that last time I looked into it most of the info seemed to say that Intel was ahead of AMD with CPUs and that the extra cost was justified. Interesting to know that's changed now.

 

[Alcophone]

So the 3-D mode doesn't change the frequency response at all.

I'd imagine you could see one channel being mixed into the other.

Can you clarify how you measured XBass and 3D? The website indicates you should get different results for 3D depending on the output (RCA vs headphone out): "Auto-switching for Speakers® and Headphones® (two separate and distinct circuits)"

 

[Blumlein 88]

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Is it ethical to sell unsafe gear to unsuspecting people?

I don't get the idea he sold his gear due to safety. He did not know that at the time (I think). So it wasn't unethical to him if he didn't know.

Beyond that you get into questions that can only be arbitrarily answered.

You say knowing an ungrounded case could be a danger makes selling it unethical. Or does it?

By selling to someone who is going to buy one anyway, you prevent the manufacture of one additional unsafe item. The buyer is no worse off than if you said nothing and sold nothing as he might buy a new one equally unsafe. So are you then additionally required for good ethics to make changes in the manufactured item or by any means necessary stop all manufacture of said unsafe piece of gear an overwhelming life goal? You have to draw the line somewhere and there is no ethical principal which will tell you where that should be in such cases.

 

[March Audio]

@amirm thanks for the post. you mentioned the HD600 sounded smeared with the unbalanced output. What does it sound like using the balanced output? Any thoughts?

The Jot still seems to be underperforming compared to specs. It's supposed to give 3 watts in balanced unless their defintion of clipping is perhaps at a higher THD like 1%.

Mate, just accept its a pile of shit. Stop looking for answers other than Schiit make poor performing uncompetitive products.

 

[amirm]

I'd imagine you could see one channel being mixed into the other.

Can you clarify how you measured XBass and 3D? The website indicates you should get different results for 3D depending on the output (RCA vs headphone out): "Auto-switching for Speakers® and Headphones® (two separate and distinct circuits)"

I just measured the frequency response out of the headphone jack.

 

[garbulky]

Mate, just accept its a pile of shit. .

You go right ahead ! Don't worry about me.

 

[L0rdGwyn]

I like to test more products in this class to find that answer too. So hopefully members send me a few more to test. I looked up the Lake People and it is over $500 so for that price, you could get the iFi iDSD Black.

Another option in the ~$500 bracket, which recently went through a new iteration, is the Headamp Gilmore Lite Mk2.

The Lake People G109-S is highly regarded, as is the Arcam rHead, which retails for $600 USD MSRP but can be head for much cheaper these days (less than $250 if purchased from the UK).

I own the Arcam rHead, maybe I could send it in the near future if members are interested.

 

[amirm]

I'm wondering with analog in, if the ifi is still superior to the jotunheim. Let's say with the 33 ohm load.

Gosh, this thing had me chase my tail for a while until I figured out what was going on. The iFi analog input seems to be an afterthought. I was getting all kinds of unstable and high readings until I figured it out it was due to be powered through USB versus not:

Somehow the charging circuit is polluting the line input but not when driven via internal DAC. Disconnecting power cleans that up (in blue) but then power delivery drops (1.3 watts versus 1.6 watts using internal DAC and power).

It also quickly saturates which means I have to drive it with lower voltages and hence, more noise.

Not sure how to do a fair comparison of it against Schiit. But here it is anyway. Note that I had to change my measurement settings to get stable values (allowing for more errors) so the results are a bit different probably than USB comparison:

This is a little messy as the Schiit Jotunheim has a more noise on one analog input channel than the other. And that channel (in light green) landed on top of one of the channels if iFi at the start.

Overall picture is a bit mixed. Below 4 milliwatts, one channel of Schiit Jotunheim is less noisy than iFi on battery. That advantage lasts until 100 milliwatt if iFi is plugged in. Above that, the distortion takes over in Schiit and it underperforms both measurements of iFi until clipping at essentially same power.

Summary
iFi iDSD Black Edition analog input has noise pollution issues when charging. It also can't handle much input. It seems to be an afterthought as the manual kind of implies (use for iPod and such).

The Schiit Jotunheim gains some noise advantage here but alas, one of its channels is noisier than the other. Above 100 milliwatt however, distortion takes over and it underperforms the iFi which by this point, is no longer noise dominated and shows its lower distortion.

 

[mindbomb]

Thanks @amirm . I guess I'm asking more to get a sense of how good the jotunheim amp is by itself, since you can buy it without the dac module, and it seems the dac is really weighing it down.

Is the thd+n curve still generally worse with balanced headphone out with the analog input? I'm sorry I've been asking a lot things.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

I don't get the idea he sold his gear due to safety. He did not know that at the time (I think). So it wasn't unethical to him if he didn't know.

Beyond that you get into questions that can only be arbitrarily answered.

You say knowing an ungrounded case could be a danger makes selling it unethical. Or does it?

By selling to someone who is going to buy one anyway, you prevent the manufacture of one additional unsafe item. The buyer is no worse off than if you said nothing and sold nothing as he might buy a new one equally unsafe. So are you then additionally required for good ethics to make changes in the manufactured item or by any means necessary stop all manufacture of said unsafe piece of gear an overwhelming life goal? You have to draw the line somewhere and there is no ethical principal which will tell you where that should be in such cases.

The only thing unethical and dangerous is the unnecessary and misleading commentary here. One can read the measurements and think what they want but all the comments regarding danger etc are just foolishness. I find it funny that not one person said that an open set of RCAs might react the way described when one switches to that open input. The poster would be wise to just use the unit and enjoy listening to it, as he had no real issues in this regard until he read about them here.

 

[amirm]

The only thing unethical and dangerous is the unnecessary and misleading commentary here.

And that would be yours. Safety codes have been developed for a reason and have force of law in many countries. They are not there for you to pick and choose to like or not like. And certainly not there to be treated lightly due to your lay intuition. The day your kid heaven forbid, sticks a screwdriver in one of those holes, you would want to pray to God that the case was grounded so that it would just spark, rather than energize the whole screwdriver.

Any more improper protests like this and you will be banned from the thread. If you want to convey what you said to someone, do it privately. We don't take safety issues lightly here.

 

[March Audio]

You go right ahead ! Don't worry about me.

Im not concerned about you in the slightest, however I don't think its a good use of Amirs time to keep concentrating on products from a company that are clearly poorly designed, inferior and uncompetitive (and even possibly dangerous). These sorts of poor results aren't a one off, they are endemic to the companies product range.

There is much value in exposing the product as a poor performer, so do initial tests, but to keep trying to dig deeper is pointless.

 

[garbulky]

Im not concerned about you in the slightest
however I don't think its a good use of Amirs time to ...

Sounds like you should talk to Amir, not me.

 

[amirm]

Thanks @amirm . I guess I'm asking more to get a sense of how good the jotunheim amp is by itself, since you can buy it without the dac module, and it seems the dac is really weighing it down.

Yeh, we need another high-power amp to put against it rather than the iFi which is a more integrated solution. I will have these measurements for future comparison.

Is the thd+n curve still generally worse with balanced headphone out with the analog input? I'm sorry I've been asking a lot things.

Yes, same relationship holds true:

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

The day your kid heaven forbid, sticks a screwdriver in one of those holes, you would want to pray to God that the case was grounded so that it would just spark, rather than energize the whole screwdriver.

Forgive me but you actually said there is very little chance of anything happening earlier in the thread.

" the risk of personal injury is exceptionally small. So for your own use I would not worry about it."

Can you please explain the actual mechanism of what you are speaking of in the above sentence? Are you saying there is actually high voltage contactable on the circuit board through the cover holes?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Forgive me but you actually said there is very little chance of anything happening earlier in the thread.

" the risk of personal injury is exceptionally small. So for your own use I would not worry about it."

Can you please explain the actual mechanism of what you are speaking of in the above sentence? Are you saying there is actually high voltage contactable on the circuit board through the cover holes?

Well there is a 120 volt power cord connected at the back. And there is this warning on the back of the unit. Think you could figure out if there is a slim chance of contacting high voltage with a metal object stuck thru a hole in the cover? From the left rear side maybe.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Well there is a 120 volt power cord connected at the back. And there is this warning on the back of the unit. Think you could figure out if there is a slim chance of contacting high voltage with a metal object stuck thru a hole in the cover? From the left rear side maybe.

View attachment 13921

OK, please look at where the holes are in the top cover in relation to the board layout. Is there any open high voltage on the top of the board? The case bottom is grounded, it was the top cover at issue. If you try hard enough anything could be dangerous. One would have to remove every electrical device from one's home. And let's not forget the oven/stove, either electric or gas.

 

[derp1n]

Well there is a 120 volt power cord connected at the back. And there is this warning on the back of the unit.

It's all very well to quote numbers and point to measurements... but it's obvious we need Amir to try electrocution for himself and report back his personal opinion. I'd also like to hear if the pain feels any warmer, fuller, or deeper while being electrocuted via a high end audiophile power cable or from a power conditioner?

 

[Blumlein 88]

OK, please look at where the holes are in the top cover in relation to the board layout. Is there any open high voltage on the top of the board? The case bottom is grounded, it was the top cover at issue. If you try hard enough anything could be dangerous. One would have to remove every electrical device from one's home. And let's not forget the oven/stove, either electric or gas.

Yes, I thought the top and sides were one piece, but the top and front are not the same as sides.