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Review and Measurements of Schiit Jotunheim and iFi iDSD Black Label DACs and Headphone Amps

gvl

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I have a related, albeit largely unused, technical background in this area and enjoy these discussions. What I have trouble with is correlating these measurements with my audio preferences as thus far the DACs that stuck with me are the supposedly technically inferior multi-bit kind, well, except the Schiit multi-bit kind which I let go pretty quickly even before I started reading ASR. And I'm not a tube guy either.
 

Thomas savage

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No Thomas we really don't want this forum cluttered up with the audiophile subjectivity rubbish that is found in other forums. So let the ones that don't understand the raison d'etre of this forum feel antagonised if that's how they perceive it and hopefully go to other forums where their anti knowledge views are embraced.
It’s not, you will from time to time come across folk who hold diffrent views though so probably best to leave them to it least create a bunch of back and forth that does then leave us with a cluttered mess of subjectivist nonsense and in the process makes us look like a battle ground. Your patient, I appreciate your efforts and have no issue with what you have posted but some guys just don’t respond the way you want. You could ask, why then are they here and tbh I don’t know why and I ask myself that same question.

Really ,(if) we are a secure community what’s to be concerned about.

There’s one or two guys , Iv news for you no matter where you are or what you do there’s always one or two guys.
 

March Audio

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I have a related, albeit largely unused, technical background in this area and enjoy these discussions. What I have trouble with is correlating these measurements with my audio preferences as thus far the DACs that stuck with me are the supposedly technically inferior multi-bit kind, well, except the Schiit multi-bit kind which I let go pretty quickly even before I started reading ASR. And I'm not a tube guy either.

I think the first thing to establish is how much your "preferences" are genuine or the product of other influences, biases or uncontrolled comparisons.

Fwiw my experiences with DACs are that the differences that exist are largely trivial and utterly insignificant once you compare blind with precisely matched volume and being able to switch instantly between the two DUT.

What this means is we probably can't hear what we like to think we can, we probably can't hear some of the problems with poor performing DACs. That comment in no way condones or validates Shit (Schiit) products or their purchase, they are just poorly designed and engineered so in the competitive market place they deserve to fail.

With Amir's testing and the input of others on this forum we have a fantastic ability to seperate the wheat from the chaff and assist people in making informed purchasing decisions free from snake oil, marketing bollocks and audiophile ignorance.
 
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gvl

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I think the first thing to establish is how much your "preferences" are genuine or the product of other influences, biases or uncontrolled comparisons.

Fwiw my experiences with DACs are that the differences that exist are largely trivial and utterly insignificant once you compare blind with precisely matched volume and being able to switch instantly between the two DUT.

The differences are small indeed, however over time I usually discover things in a piece of gear that I don't like which seemingly increases their weight toward contribution to the overall satisfaction level. Finding gear free of such subjective annoyances proved to be challenging.
 

March Audio

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The differences are small indeed, however over time I usually discover things in a piece of gear that I don't like which seemingly increases their weight toward contribution to the overall satisfaction level. Finding gear free of such subjective annoyances proved to be challenging.
My reaction to that is now audition the "annoying" equipment in comparison to other equipment blind with precise volume matching and see if you can still identify said annoyances or indeed which is which.
 

gvl

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My reaction to that is now audition the "annoying" equipment in comparison to other equipment blind with precise volume matching and see if you can still identify said annoyances or indeed which is which.

To be scientific I'd probably want them measured first, as if if there is a significant difference in measurements it is not that unreasonable to expect that I can pick them up differently in a blind test.
 

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To be scientific I'd probably want them measured first, as if if there is a significant difference in measurements it is not that unreasonable to expect that I can pick them up differently in a blind test.

If it is not practical for you to test equipment you will be limited to the items that have reputable test results provided or published. This excludes most 'boutique/esoteric gear. Sad but reality. :(
Amirm is doing a great job testing some equipment but it will always be a drop in a large ever-changing ocean.
 

gvl

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If it is not practical for you to test equipment you will be limited to the items that have reputable test results provided or published. This excludes most 'boutique/esoteric gear. Sad but reality. :(
Amirm is doing a great job testing some equipment but it will always be a drop in a large ever-changing ocean.

I suppose one approach is to have one known objectively well performing DAC in the household and use it as a reference. I have one, but it happens to be one of my least favorites, it is getting long in the tooth however. I should probably pick one of the newer units of the Topping variety that scored well here and see how it goes.
 

Soniclife

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To be scientific I'd probably want them measured first, as if if there is a significant difference in measurements it is not that unreasonable to expect that I can pick them up differently in a blind test.
I don't think it matters which way around the listening is done vs measurements, unless you suspect one of your DACs will measure VERY badly. The other way of looking at it is if many of us did level matched DBT tests then any positive results would be very worth measuring. Negative results should be posted as well, but measuring them becomes less interesting. A selection of controlled listening test results would be a great addition to the measurements.
 

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I personally think the benefits of using measurements is to "cut the crap". The argument of sound preference over measurements is fair on a personal level but some of us want quality products for our hard earned money. Like I own both tube amps and solid state amps. I'm not going to argue that one cannot enjoy something imperfect. The real issue is that the industry is full of tall claims and absurdly expensive products that have questionable benefits. Us as consumers can't easily determine the real value of these products so we often have to rely on subjective musings which at the end of the day are just that, subjective. Which let's remember how easily one can be convinced to believe they do or don't hear things. That's where measurements come in and Amir thankfully has the time, gear and expertise do what basically no one else is doing. Furthermore if during measurements it comes to light that the gear is of substandard quality I think we should question the company making the products.
 

Frank Dernie

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To be scientific I'd probably want them measured first, as if if there is a significant difference in measurements it is not that unreasonable to expect that I can pick them up differently in a blind test.
I am not so sure.
Even the poorly measuring DACs have a better signal to noise performance and less distortion, for example, than most power amps. So it is entirely possible the less good ones are still hard/impossible to tell from superb ones, which begs the question why measure DACs not speakers and power amps with real loads, which vary order of magnitudes more than DACs (and most preamps).
Add to thet the fact that a lot of audio equipment enthusiasts like the distortions, frequency response aberrations and so forth in lots of popular gear so it is hardly surprising if some people prefer the sound of a product adding noise, distortion and non-linearity, it happens all the time.
I think it is enough to present the measurements as is done now. If somebody can't hear the poor performance, or prefers it, that is fine IMO.

I do think enough Shiit products have been tested here now.
Pretty well all of them show problems which may or may not be audible. The safety issue is a bigger concern. But whatever, it is clear that their fans go on and on (and on and on) about nothing in particular creating some heat but no light.
Why don't we just accept that Shiit products are technically suspect but some people are fans, and leave it at that? The fans are obviously not convinced by measurements. The rest of us can just not buy Shiit kit.
There are plenty of other popular audio components which measure much, much worse that even the worst Schiit DACs!
 
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We don't want to see anyone disappointed here! :) Here you go and I included Topping DX7s since someone asked about it:

View attachment 13880

Schiit Jotunheim was set to hav 2 volt output from its "pre-out" RCA jacks in the back using the volume control. On iFi, I set the switch that forces the same for its RCA jacks. Both driven using USB. For topping, and for ease of testing, I fed it SPDIF and measured its RCA output.

BTW, this test is a refines some for speed so don't necessarily compare it to others (although it should be very close). As we see, the Schiit Jotunheim multi-bit DAC starts to do its quantization error dance (going up and down) around just 74 dB (translates into 12 bits). It stays OK until about 82 dB or so but then takes flight and errors become significant.

The iFi does better, staying pretty reasonable until 92 dB or so even a few dB higher. It has an easy 18 dB or 3 bit advantage over Schiit Jotunheim.

Of course our sigma-delta DACs like Topping DX7s nail this accuracy test, providing perfect results to 120 dB or 20 bits.

If you want to go multi-bit, then the iFi iDSD Black Edition is the DAC of choice. Otherwise, traditional technologies such as ESS DAC used in Topping DX7s remain superior.

I sold my ifi black after I saw this. DAC section is very disappointing. When I heard 24bit file, it worked as 15bit dac...!!!!? I was attracted to 'multibit' or 'delta-multi hybrid' And...amplifier section was powerful but my volume knob's channel balance was not good. So I needed to change gain button frequently.
 

Veri

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I sold my ifi black after I saw this. DAC section is very disappointing.

Well I bought this device second hand and I find it anything but disappointing. I'm listening to it with my HD650 and a harman target EQ which comes with an equalizer APO preamp of -10dB to prevent any clipping.

This tiny USB-driven black box drives the HD650 perfectly even with the negative preamp, it's SUPER loud in "normal" mode I guess the "turbo" is there for planar headphones or deaf people. The bass boost DSP toggle is pretty useless since I'm using a software equalizer, but the 3D sound/crossfeed switch has really grown on me. It makes things sound "smaller" actually rather than wider, but it also helps against listening fatigue and makes things slightly more interesting for me.

So overall. It's tiny, super powerful, has nifty DSP switches, coaxical/optical/usb inputs, battery power. Downsides: the line-in is an afterthought, the "bitperfect" mode should really be called NOS-mode as to not confuse people, and finally its price when new is rather steep. But if you can get it on sale or second-hand, this is pretty much all you'd ever need. It's highly configurable and can drive most headphones on the market. Noise floor is low with both headphones and IEMs. Only device I'd put above it is the $1K RME ADI-2 DAC since it comes with tons and tons of features and less distortion, but most people won't ever need a Pro-range device like that.

Really, really glad I bought this thing and it's Amir's review of it that convinced me. Thanks, @amirm !!
Now, to sell off my EL Dac since it has become basically obsolete overnight :oops::oops:
 
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Well I bought this device second hand and I find it anything but disappointing. I'm listening to it with my HD650 and a harman target EQ which comes with an equalizer APO preamp of -10dB to prevent any clipping.

This tiny USB-driven black box drives the HD650 perfectly even with the negative preamp, it's SUPER loud in "normal" mode I guess the "turbo" is there for planar headphones or deaf people. The bass boost DSP toggle is pretty useless since I'm using a software equalizer, but the 3D sound/crossfeed switch has really grown on me. It makes things sound "smaller" actually rather than wider, but it also helps against listening fatigue and makes things slightly more interesting for me.

So overall. It's tiny, super powerful, has nifty DSP switches, coaxical/optical/usb inputs, battery power. Downsides: the line-in is an afterthought, the "bitperfect" mode should really be called NOS-mode as to not confuse people, and finally its price when new is rather steep. But if you can get it on sale or second-hand, this is pretty much all you'd ever need. It's highly configurable and can drive most headphones on the market. Noise floor is low with both headphones and IEMs. Only device I'd put above it is the $1K RME ADI-2 DAC since it comes with tons and tons of features and less distortion, but most people won't ever need a Pro-range device like that.

Really, really glad I bought this thing and it's Amir's review of it that convinced me. Thanks, @amirm !!
Now, to sell off my EL Dac since it has become basically obsolete overnight :oops::oops:

To be honest, I was satisfied with ifi black. Bass Boost absolutely complemented HD800S! Yes... I was little hasty. Damn...that lucky guy(I sold it for 250 bucks;)) Hum... this is similar to what subjective community make me do. it's strange.:oops:

Before ifi black, I used O2 and hifime9018(look at that humble measurement!). And I compared two dacs on O2. Subjectively, I listened very little difference. It made me embarrassed because there was no day and night difference. But amp section was really satisfying although volume knob was little awkward. Maybe I can't distinguish between ifi black, d50 rme-adi2, etc...

So why did I sell my ifi? I wanna get something well measured than it at this price range. Under 16bit? I can't accept it. I'm not rich. Hundreds of dollars are big money to me. If external dac has some superior thing than onboard dac chip, it has to show me they work over CD quality although I couldn't distinguish them.

Maybe just low price but well measured products like o2/sdac are enough for my humble ears:) But we know we have own ruler, and there is no end game in this hobby.:D
 
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Veri

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So why did I sell my ifi? I wanna get something well measured than it at this price range. Under 16bit? I can't accept it. I'm not rich. Hundreds dollars are big money to me. If external dac have some superior thing than onboard dac chip, it has to show me they work over CD quality although I couldn't distinguish them.

Maybe just low price but well measured products like o2/sdac are enough for my humble ears:) But we know we have own ruler, and there is no end game in this hobby.:D

Fair enough. I can't discern between DACs, at all :) AKM, Sabre, Burr brown, all sound the same to me. I just really love the feature set, raw power and the internal battery. Awesome kit!
 

Dana reed

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This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Schiit Jotunheim Headphone Amplifier (with its optional Multibit DAC) and iFi iDSD Black Label DAC and Headphone amplifier. Both are on kind loans from members and arrived on the same day. Seeing how their prices are similar, I decided to compare them to each other. The iFi however, has built-in battery, is far smaller and less power hungry, making it suitable for portable use in addition to desktop. The Jotunheim on the other hand, is firmly a desktop product, in a pretty heavy case for its size and is mains powered. Here they are together:

View attachment 13844

I say the minimalist look of Schiit products is best represented in this form factor. I also like the heft and feel of the large volume control.

The ifi is quite cute and nicely done from style point of view. Alas, I don't like switches spread everywhere on the side and bottom. Placement is more optimized though so perhaps that is good for performance.

As mentioned, the Schiit Jotunheim came with its optional DAC board. With the included DAC it retails for USD $599 plus shipping direct from Schiit (they don't sell any other way). The iFi iDSD Black Edition seems to be listed at the same price. So it is a fair comparison from that point of view.

Both worked in plug-and-play mode with Windows 10 Creators edition. For measurements I used ASIO4ALL to create an ASIO interface for my Audio Precision analyzer software to control them. For listening, I used WASAPI interface in Roon player.

iFi iDSD Black supports DSD up to 512 whereas Schiit Jotunheim DAC does not support DSD at all. On the other hand, the Schiit Jotunheim has both balanced analog inputs and outputs in addition "balanced" headphone out. I did not test any of the balanced functionality in this review.

I am sure you are all anxious to see how they measure so let's get into that:

Measurements
Let's start with our usual Dashboard of iFi iDSD Black:

View attachment 13845

I have set the level of the headphone output to 2 volts to more or so match the nominal RCA DAC outputs. At 93 SINAD (signal over distortion+noise) fidelity is respectful. No, it is not at the state-of-the-art desktops that go 110 dB and beyond but pretty good for a portable USB DAC with headphone output.

Switching to Jotunheim, we see clearly reduced performance at the same 2 volt output:
View attachment 13846

We lose 10 dB of SINAD. And we see that mains hum in the FFT spectrum as indicated.

The story does not end here though. By chance, I put my hand on the Jotunheim while having my other hand on the metal case of my laptop and to my amazement saw that mains hum go right down! What the heck???

I disconnect power and pull out the power and check for grounding. I first test to see if there is continuity between mains safety ground and unbalanced/RCA signal ground:

View attachment 13847

We get 0.2 ohms which essentially says they are connected. Now the same test but this time with the upper part of the case:
View attachment 13848

Yup. "OL" means open load or no connection whatsoever! Notice how I am poking my sharp leads into the drilled holes of the upper case. There is some kind of coating on it that insulates electricity which I suspect the reason it is not grounded. However it is screwed to the bottom (which is grounded), there is no electrical connection.

So I ground the upper case using the same drilled holes to the RCA connection as such:
View attachment 13849

And our dashboard now shows:

View attachment 13850

Look at the FFT. The mains hum is gone, gone, gone! The worse channel (#2) shows 1.6 dB of improvement in SINAD. All with a 10 cent wire jumper!

Note that the difference was more dramatic at other times.

The Jotunheim like other Schiit products uses an EI core transformer (as opposed to toroidal) so it is essential that the entire case is grounded to keep the magnetic field from coupling into the audio circuit.

More important, this is a three-pronged mains input in a device with metal case. This means it is NOT double insulated and as such, from safety/UL point of view, it most definitely needs to have the entire chassis connected to mains safety ground. Should the hot lead come in contact with the upper case holes, it will energize it and no circuit breaker will trip! Yes, it is a one in a million chance of happening but if it happens to you, it will be a one in one chance. :)

This problem needs immediate investigation by Schiit. I suggest that owners get an ohm meter with sharp probes and repeat my test above. If you get an open load as I did, contact Schiit and ask them to investigate and repair.

Anyway, let's continue with distortion versus frequency measurement:
View attachment 13851

Once again, the iFi DSD Black provides competent performance whereas the Schiit has that odd rising distortion with frequency. 0.3% distortion at 20 kHz in this day and age? Really? This is unacceptable. It is likely running out of gain to provide feedback and reduce distortion.

Here is the intermodulation distortion versus input level:
View attachment 13852

Looks like one channel in iFi iDSD Black is noisier than the other. As the signal gets larger, that difference gets lost in the noise literally and performance is good. But again, not in desktop category as shown by the Oppo UDP-205 -- one of the best measuring DACs out there (really a UHD Blu-ray player). The Schiit Jotunheim underperforms the iFi iDSD Black by 10 dB or so. This is very significant difference.

How about jitter and noise?
View attachment 13853

While iFi iDSD Black outperforms the Jotunheim by 10 dB again in noise, the latter seems to have a decent performance too. So not much to complain about.

And oh, here is the frequency response for iFi at 44.1 kHz CD sampling:

View attachment 13855

And Schiit Jotunheim:

View attachment 13856

The reconstruction filter in the DACs rolls off the highs in both starting at 17 kHz. Not an issue for us older folks but for younger crowd, it would be good to have this be a couple of kilohertz higher.

As headphone amplifiers, probably the most important measurement is distortion versus output power. These are newly styled measurements that show the power directly. They rely on me remembering to set that parameter correctly which I think I have (crossing fingers). First at 300 ohm load to simulate a headphone like Sennheiser HD-650:
View attachment 13857

The iFi iDSD Black yet again shows off its lower noise but I was very surprised to see it outperform the Schiit Jotunheim on power! The iFi is a USB powered product folks. Yet it is pushing more power and cleaner level than Schiit Jotunheim which seems to have some kind of internal limiting.

Stepping down to 150 ohm we get this:

View attachment 13858

Same differential in performance in favor of iFi.

And 33 ohm:

View attachment 13859

Amazing. The iFi continues its lead at all output loads/impedances.

Finally, let's look at channel imbalance as I in real-time adjust the volume control and the analyzer plots the power (at 300 ohm load) versus channel imbalance. First iFi iDSD Black:

View attachment 13860

I put both units in their lowest gain mode because that is the most useful scenario. There, the error for the iFi is below 0.3 dB or so until the very end/minimum level. Audibly you can easily tell one channel cuts out earlier than the other in high-gain mode. In low/eco mode, it is much, much less noticeable. With three different gain settings, I don't think this is a problem for the iFi.

Here is Schiit Jotunheim:

View attachment 13861

The Jotunheim is more well behaved here with channel balance maintained much better at the limit.

Output impedance was excellently low in both with iFi landing at 0.9 ohms and Jotunheim at 0.8 ohms.

Let's get into how they sound.

Listening Tests
I usually perform level match testing of headphones. This time I thought I do as others do, listen to music and quickly switch the headphone jack back and forth (playback is ganged through Roon). Even though the tests are sighted and obviously not level matched, I think the results mirror measurements pretty well because focus is on power delivery and clarity. Then again, they may just be my imagination so read with caution! :)

I started my testing with my Sennheiser HD-650 headphones. I seem to never have enough power to drive these. Well, that changed with this review.

I started with my electronic tracks which I find most revealing with headphones and headphone amps. To wit, this track from 20 KID: https://suiciderobot.bandcamp.com/track/switch

Here is another one of their tracks:

I must say, I didn't there was a such a thing as "subwoofer for your ears" but this is the best analogy I can come up with when driving the HD-605s with iFi iDSD Black. At mid-levels before pain sets in, you can feel your ear lobes vibrating and the headphone cups taking flight! Yes, the cans start to physically vibrate back and forth. It was an incredible and highly satisfying experience I had not had with headphones!

What is that? Speak up, I can't hear you! :D Yes, it was loud, but not too loud for a few seconds of testing.

Too loud came after turning up the level even more! :D:D It now feels like my head is inside the drums. What an experience. If I did not fear permanent hearing loss, I would listen like this all day! I must say, the sound stayed clean until I got too scared to turn it up further.

I then switched to Schiit Jotunheim. It too had incredible power able to make the headphone cups run for their lives. Alas, the bass is less clear and distinct than the iFi. And highs have this smeary slightly weird sound to them.

Mind you, the extra power of the Jotunheim is quite a bit more satisfying than lower distortion but lower power headphone amps. It is just that in the presence of the iFi iDSD Black, it had power but without the finesse. So I can understand the praise this unit gets.

I should say that the iFi iDSD Black as the measurements showed, has more power and headroom than Jotunheim.

Next I switched to a low impedance Grado SR60e. With ifi at low volume the experience is quite satisfying with highly dynamic sound. Turn up the volume just a quarter though (in "turbo" or highest gain mode) and the Grado starts to cry. The drivers start to rattle and buzz. Prior to that there is a transition period where distortion sets in. It is fascinating to see the headphone distort well before the amplifier does.

Using the Gradoes with Jotunheim was unpleasant after listening to iFi drive them. High frequencies are more distorted at almost all listening levels.

Next was Sony MDR-V6. At more than a quarter volume with the iFi, it felt like the drivers were going to tear up! These headphones simply can't handle power. Driving them with Jotunheim delivered a dull experience in contrast. Detail and distinction in bass gets lost due to the amp and the driver distortion screws up the rest.

Last but not least is HiFiman HE400i. What a delight these headphones are. As with Sennheiser HD-650s, they easily handle enough power for the cans to take flight and your hearing anatomy dance to the pressure waves of the music! Distortion was so low that I could turn the volume enough until my cheeks started to resonate with music! Too scared to push the volume above 2:00 o'clock position.

The experience with Jotunheim was muddy and dull again. Yes, the power is there to rattle my teeth just fine. But the overall fidelity simply is not there compared to iFi iDSD Black. As you turned up the volume to the end, distortion gets really bad and obvious. This is in sharp contrast to the iFi which would deliver clean power to the extreme.

Conclusions
It was great to test these two high-power headphone amplifiers. They forever changed my experience and expectation of headphone amplifiers. Between the two, the iFi iDSD Black Edition is a clear winner. It is so both in objective measurements and subjective listening tests across multiple headphones.

The lack of upper lid grounding in Jotunheim is a safety concern and likely the cause of hum and noise in its user base. It produces higher distortion and noise which I find audibly objectionable. It also generates fair bit of heat. The top is borderline too hot to put your hands on.

In sharp contrast, the iFi iDSD Black barely gets warm and delivers power that belies its diminutive size. The fact that this much performance is also portable with battery power, is incredible. As such, iFi iDSD Black Edition gets my strongest recommendation in headphone DACs and Amplifiers. Well done iFi.

-------------

As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

If you like this review, please consider donating funds for these types of hardware purchases using Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/audiosciencereview), or upgrading your membership here though Paypal (https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...eview-and-measurements.2164/page-3#post-59054).
Not sure if you still have this amp, but would be interesting to see it measured as amp-only, compared to say, the magni, and something like the DAC3, using only the analog inputs of each. I suspect there would be quite a bit better measurements from a dynamic range perspective compared to the internal multibit DAC.
 
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Gruss Gott

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I personally think the benefits of using measurements is to "cut the crap". ... if during measurements it comes to light that the gear is of substandard quality I think we should question the company making the products.

Of course that opinion assumes that measurements are perfectly conducted, by perfect equipment, interpreted perfectly, and perfectly translate to audible differences uniquely and specifically to our individual ears ... which, of course, is the entire purpose of the products being measured: good audio to our individual ears.

Thus I think measurements are just as likely to induce "crap"rather than cut it.

Belief in the perfection of measurements is, therefore, religious, not scientific.
 

Blumlein 88

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Of course that opinion assumes that measurements are perfectly conducted, by perfect equipment, interpreted perfectly, and perfectly translate to audible differences uniquely and specifically to our individual ears ... which, of course, is the entire purpose of the products being measured: good audio to our individual ears.

Thus I think measurements are just as likely to induce "crap"rather than cut it.

Belief in the perfection of measurements is, therefore, religious, not scientific.

There is not a true statement in any sentence you posted. You are creating a fantasy position for you to then criticize. Your opinion being as good as any opinion regardless of what it is will not cut it around here.
 

Gruss Gott

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There is not a true statement in any sentence you posted. You are creating a fantasy position for you to then criticize. Your opinion being as good as any opinion regardless of what it is will not cut it around here.

Didn't mean to poop in your measurements church, just providing some science since, you know, that's in the name of this web site.
 
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