Review and Measurements of Sabaj D5 DAC & Amp

[BDWoody]

A site that works hard to measure and rank the differences between DACs and then professes that there are no differences between DACs makes no sense me.

I should add that there is much in the world that makes no sense to me these days.

No one says there are no differences. There are lots of them. Most have little to do with audible differences.

Edit: Which seems to be something you consistently like to bring up. I thought I remembered you...not much for controlled testing...

 

[Enkay25]

A site that works hard to measure and rank the differences between DACs and then professes that there are no differences between DACs makes no sense me.

I should add that there is much in the world that makes no sense to me these days.

For me to make sense I interpret the site and it's measurements as such :

DACS have and can have different measurements. These are to do with the engineering and the technology... especially with the processing of inputs and outputs. And accordingly can have sub-par output or excellent one.

However this/these differences does not mean an audible difference at our subjective levels. And this is not related with the technology/engineering but the individual perception.....which is a function of the human ear and brain, and conditioning.

So for me the measurements act as a parameter for how well the DACs are engineered....which logically, has to have a direct relation with how well it will sound.

Edit : @BDWoody beat me to it

 

[Majestyk]

Well in a bizarre twist of events I've decided to keep my Transporter. (I either want one or the other). Upon more listening I've come to the conclusion that it has better mid range. And there is definitely no bias happening since I was all ready to ditch the Transporter and had it on ebay.

I'm not going to pollute this thread with anymore of this non Sabaj jabber so you're welcome to read my further comments here...

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/topping-dx3-pro.7498/page-2

(No, I'm not trying to promote this forum. I rarely go to it.)

 

[BDWoody]

And there is definitely no bias happening since I was all ready to ditch the Transporter and had it on ebay.

So, bias is both a conscious and unconscious thing... you can't just dismiss it like that as if you had control of it.

Blind test...levels matched...otherwise, unreliable to yourself and everyone you are trying to inform.

 

[Kane1972]

So using the SINAD chart, if one chooses 2 DAC’s from the same tier, there is no way anyone could hear any difference between the two in a blind test? What about a tier 1 and a tier 2 DAC or a tier 1 and a tier 3? At what point does the sound of a DAC become distinguishable from another?

If we are saying that all tier 1 DAC’s will sound identical, then we should simply be choosing one on build quality (so it lasts), aesthetics and features we need?

So assuming all tier 1 DAC’s do sound indistinguishable, will there every be a time when a DAC will reach another level that it will sound better than any of the tier one DACs? Say when it reaches true 24 bit as opposed to the 20 bit we seem to have peaked at?

Thanks

 

[solderdude]

SINAD is just one aspect, not the only important aspect.

 

[Kane1972]

SINAD is just one aspect, not the only important aspect.

Ok, so what measurements are the important ones? This site suggests one could chose the most transparent DAC from the figures alone and that there will be no difference in sound if the specs are close enough. I want to know which specs determine when one DAC will be distinguishable from another?

There is another camp who say specs cannot tell you how a DAC will sound but if that’s the case, then specs are close to meaningless and only listening tests mean anything and then those tests have to be double blind to satisfy the first group who would still argue the specs contradict those blind tests.

 

[BDWoody]

So using the SINAD chart, if one chooses 2 DAC’s from the same tier, there is no way anyone could hear any difference between the two in a blind test? What about a tier 1 and a tier 2 DAC or a tier 1 and a tier 3? At what point does the sound of a DAC become distinguishable from another?

If we are saying that all tier 1 DAC’s will sound identical, then we should simply be choosing one on build quality (so it lasts), aesthetics and features we need?

So assuming all tier 1 DAC’s do sound indistinguishable, will there every be a time when a DAC will reach another level that it will sound better than any of the tier one DACs? Say when it reaches true 24 bit as opposed to the 20 bit we seem to have peaked at?

Thanks

You've boiled it down perfectly.

When you look at this chart:

You can see just how small these signals are... When someone claims they can hear the 'obvious' difference between -90db and -100db, they are saying they could hear the difference between a 0db reference signal from 20 to 80 MILES away.

I don't believe I could tell a difference... I don't believe anyone can.

So, yes...pick based on features, design, inputs and outputs, whatever you like...but to pick one believing it will sound better, assuming it is at least competently designed, isn't 'sound' thinking...

Once you've got transparency...you've got transparency...no more stress needed.

Time to focus on speakers and room treatment for better sound...not solid state electronics, or cables, or quantum iisolators..

 

[Kane1972]

So would you say we have reached the pinnacle of transparency with regards to digital audio? So no matter how the specs improve, we will never hear a better sounding DAC than any of the tier one DAC’s that exist today? Or is there still room for improvement in ways we will be able to hear?

Get Outlook for iOS

 

[BDWoody]

So would you say we have reached the pinnacle of transparency with regards to digital audio? So no matter how the specs improve, we will never hear a better sounding DAC than any of the tier one DAC’s that exist today? Or is there still room for improvement in ways we will be able to hear?

Get Outlook for iOS

I don't believe future DAC's will sound better to humans. There isn't anything hidden that we can't measure, and they are already incredibly accurate.

It's about their integration and implementation.

The Apple dongle is all anyone 'needs,' if all they need is transparency...

 

[Kane1972]

I think to suggest that we have discovered everything there is to with regards to anything including audio is a bit arrogant and I don’t mean that as an attack, I just can’t think of a better word.

Scientist have only just discovered the largest organ in the human body, the Interstitium. So, it’s conceivable there are relevant things we are not measuring that are relevant as we don’t have the knowledge of them yet.

 

[Tks]

So would you say we have reached the pinnacle of transparency with regards to digital audio? So no matter how the specs improve, we will never hear a better sounding DAC than any of the tier one DAC’s that exist today? Or is there still room for improvement in ways we will be able to hear?

Get Outlook for iOS

We've passed this already. The only devices left are the drivers themselves and your room(for speakers). They exhibit far more distortions and inconsistencies than Amps ever do anymore, let alone DAC's.

I can send my drivers to oblivion before my amp or DAC would audibly distort.

Personally speaking, I feel the last bastion of audible improvements is in the ADC devices and microphones themselves (hardware, as well as recording techniques like binaural and such others). Otherwise chasing better specs in the AMP/DAC domain helps with various output levels, or the level of signal being sent to amps I suppose. Oh and of course noisy environments I suppose, and also for the sake of flexing engineering prowess. Some see that as pointless in the consumer sphere, but I'd rather that be the measuring stick than some of the ridiculous marketing investments, or gilding of devices with precious materials.

But looking around, it seems quite a few industries have reached points where for normal everyday consumers, the quality bar could stay static and it would be perfect as long as we still listen with our ears.

 

[Kane1972]

I’m enjoying this conversation

 

[BDWoody]

I think to suggest that we have discovered everything there is to with regards to anything including audio is a bit arrogant and I don’t mean that as an attack, I just can’t think of a better word.

Scientist have only just discovered the largest organ in the human body, the Interstitium. So, it’s conceivable there are relevant things we are not measuring that are relevant as we don’t have the knowledge of them yet.

This is certainly true, but so far not a single person who claims to hear these differences is able to do more than claim it...with no controlled testing...ever... to back up those claims.

The issue is more that people refuse to follow a methodology to compare devices that allows for meaningful results.

Match levels.
Test without knowing source.
Differences disappear.

If you think you hear differences...follow above before being too sure of yourself.

A DAC is an electronic device that follows the rules of sampling theory (or should) to recreate an analog signal. It isn't musical, and it isn't mystical.

 

[Kane1972]

I think this is sound advice (pardon the pun) and I’m certainly not sure if myself. I’ve also never been sure that double blind tests are the best for audio assessment and I’ve read some interesting debates on that too.

I’ve always thought a test something like this works be good.

First do the usual comparison tests most people do, switching back and fourth between two sources. Once you think you have picked the one that sounds better (if you have s preference of course). Make notes on what aspect of sound you preferred (better bass or whatever).

Then move on to a test where someone else switches between the two devices telling you when they have switched but not which source is which. See if you still pick the same source as the best.

Then perform a third test where the other person says they are switching and you have to tell them if they switched or not. See if you can still pick.

Then do the switching at random without knowing if any switching as occurred to see if the switch can be heard, which I believe is the proper ABX double blind is it not?

I believe the latter would be neigh on impossible to discern, as I do believe differences are small in most cases and test the brain adapts to those small changes in a similar way persistence of vision works. However, the other tests I’m more optimistic about differences being heard but I’m certainly not confident.

I know most would not consider the firsts tests relevant.

 

[BDWoody]

I think this is sound advice (pardon the pun) and I’m certainly not sure if myself. I’ve also never been sure that double blind tests are the best for audio assessment and I’ve read some interesting debates on that too.

I’ve always thought a test something like this works be good.

First do the usual comparison tests most people do, switching back and fourth between two sources. Once you think you have picked the one that sounds better (if you have s preference of course). Make notes on what aspect of sound you preferred (better bass or whatever).

Then move on to a test where someone else switches between the two devices telling you when they have switched but not which source is which. See if you still pick the same source as the best.

Then perform a third test where the other person says they are switching and you have to tell them if they switched or not. See if you can still pick.

Then do the switching at random without knowing if any switching as occurred to see if the switch can be heard, which I believe is the proper ABX double blind is it not?

I believe the latter would be neigh on impossible to discern, as I do believe differences are small in most cases and test the brain adapts to those small changes in a similar way persistence of vision works. However, the other tests I’m more optimistic about differences being heard but I’m certainly not confident.

I know most would not consider the firsts tests relevant.

Well, if I started passing a single blind test consistently (me not knowing), I would add the double blind element (neither me nor the volunteer switcher knows), then possibly add the 'x' element (a third sample, randomly selected either a or b) ABX if I was still passing.

Edit: main thing is to go to every length to avoid bias creeping in...

 

[Harry1973]

Well, I went and bought D5. Very clad I did. This is one amazing DAC. Huge resolution with lots of details and amazing fast bass. These were the first two things that caught my ears. Also very musical and well balanced. I find this more balanced sounding than Chord Mojo and sound-stage is wider but still as punchy. Also the highs are cleaner. I would consider this a step up from Chord Mojo (as a Dac in a main system with loudspeakers). Compared to Bluesound Node 2 (if someone is familiar with it) the difference is, well..big.

 

[Lmitchr]

Edit: main thing is to go to every length to avoid bias creeping in...

Over here, the main thing is to recreate the artistic expression and detail of the musical performance captured in the recording with the goal of maximizing the enjoyment of the listeners.

My experience is that some DACs do this better than others. I know of no objective measurement technique that predicts the level of musical enjoyment.

 

[BDWoody]

Over here, the main thing is to recreate the artistic expression and detail of the musical performance captured in the recording with the goal of maximizing the enjoyment of the listeners.

My experience is that some DACs do this better than others.

That's the job of the sound engineers and artists. I want what they signed off on, not what someone else ' thinks' sound better. A DAC is not supposed to be a synthesizer. I can add effects as I choose, but I want the closest to the original signal as I can get.

Your 'experience' being uncontrolled and purely subjective I'm assuming...?

 

[Lmitchr]

That's the job of the sound engineers and artists. I want what they signed off on, not what someone else ' thinks' sound better. A DAC is not supposed to be a synthesizer. I can add effects as I choose, but I want the closest to the original signal as I can get.

Your 'experience' being uncontrolled and purely subjective I'm assuming...?

So it looks like we have a different view of what "the main thing" is.

You should consider that others do not share your values, and that pedantically reiterating your "bias control" mantra disrupts and suppresses the discussion of others, is incredibly distracting and ultimately completely boring.