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Review and Measurements of Purifi 1ET400A Amplifier

March Audio

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Purifi Audio - A Straight Wire to the Soul of Music, October 23 2019
https://www.audioxpress.com/article/purifi-audio-a-straight-wire-to-the-soul-of-music


https%3A%2F%2Fwww.audioxpress.com%2Fassets%2Fupload%2Fimages%2F1%2F20191023205425_Figure1-Purifi-Audio-Didden.png


Figure 1: The magnetic flux depends not only on the point on the BH curve, but also on where at which point you were before — there is a memory effect of sorts.


Updated

[ So there is an element of hysteresis, memory if you like, which causes strong nonlinearity. Although the feedback loop decreases all nonlinearities it encloses, if the error is large enough it can make itself heard in the output signal. This also suggests the solution: just increase the loop gain (that is, the amount of feedback)!

The crux for increased feedback is a tailored compensation loop, but to be able to design that you need to be able to model how the amplifier (and its output filter with the output coil) varies in gain and phase at any load and any level within its working envelope, and adapt the feedback/compensation loop accordingly... ]


https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/321578-phase-shift-class-amplifiers-affects-sound.html

Phase shift:

* PURIFI 1ET400A: only at 20 kHz.

* Hypex NC400: amirm -> about 16º - 17º at 20 kHz. NC500 must be the same.

index.php

and once again I will post Brunos explanation about phase shift in his class D designs which you repeatedly choose to ignore for some obscure reason.


https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits...eaders-qa-with-lars-risbo-bruno-putzeys-r815/

@Sagittarius: Class D has achieved very low levels of distortion, but is it possible for class D amplifiers to continue their evolution into something close to a straight wire with gain, i.e. minimal phase shift in the audio band? (A similar question from maty).

Bruno: The 1ET400 module has the frequency and phase response of a 2nd order Butterworth filter cornering at 60kHz. If you look at the phase shift of that, it’s very nearly “linear phase” in the audio band. To take some rough numbers, it if you have a circuit that has a 0.2 degree phase shift at 200Hz, 2 degrees at 2kHz and 20 degrees at 20kHz, that’s the same as saying it has “0.001 degree per Hertz” phase shift. That’s another way of saying that the whole signal is simply delayed by 2.8 microseconds. If you plot phase shift on a linear frequency scale that’s immediately obvious because you get a straight line. Of course a simple delay doesn’t change the sound. It’s literally the same as starting your music a few microseconds later.

Lars: My dad used to say that if you left a CD in its case without playing it back, it’d just sit there accumulating massive amounts of phase shift as time went by.

Bruno: What that matters to sound is how much phase shift differs from a pure delay. Anyone who’s ever done phase measurements on speakers will remember that you have to remove the time-of-flight delay from the data, for instance by marking the leading edge of the impulse response. Otherwise the linear phase shift corresponding to the distance between the speaker and the mic completely clouds the picture. In the case of the 1ET400 module it’s just under 1 degree at 20kHz. There never was a phase shift problem in class D, it’s simply a trick of the light that happens when you plot the phase response on a log scale without removing the fixed delay.
 

maty

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One thing is a fixed delay or phase shift and other when it vary with the frequency, like BP sure knows and you should know.

With acoustic and less with electric instruments. And maybe nothing with synthesized instrumentation.
 

Julf

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One thing is a fixed delay or phase shift and other when it vary with the frequency, like BP sure knows and you should know.

Even when it varies with frequency, it is not an issue as long as the shift isn't extreme or varies wildly. Have you looked at the phase plots of typical passive speaker crossovers?
 

renevoorburg

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If this memory effect of coils that Bruno refers to is a significant thing it means we should change how we test audio gear. Testing is now done in a very static way. A static test, like for example an IMD test, would not make the memory effect visible since we don't alter the frequencies of the test tones during the test. So we don't see the variation in how it responds to the 'memory' of various altering previous tones.

Perhaps something to ask @Bruno Putzeys , how to test gear for distortion caused by this dynamic memory effect.
 

Mnyb

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I would think the hysteris is in play with any test signal it's AC after all ? is it not ? higher frequncy will stress it more. Magnetic hysteris is not new ?
Would you not "ride" the whole hysteris curve in one 1kHz cykle ?
 

March Audio

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One thing is a fixed delay or phase shift and other when it vary with the frequency, like BP sure knows and you should know.

With acoustic and less with electric instruments. And maybe nothing with synthesized instrumentation.

The instrument is irrelevant, you still dont appear to grasp the concept that Bruno talks about. With his earlier designs the phase shift is linear WRT to frequency which means its just a fixed time delay. Keep reading Brunos text over and over. Record it and play it to yourself as you sleep. One day, perhaps one day, it might sink in.

As has already been mentioned, have you seen what speaker crossovers do to phase?
 

Julf

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If this memory effect of coils that Bruno refers to is a significant thing it means we should change how we test audio gear. Testing is now done in a very static way. A static test, like for example an IMD test, would not make the memory effect visible since we don't alter the frequencies of the test tones during the test. So we don't see the variation in how it responds to the 'memory' of various altering previous tones.

I think this shows a misunderstanding of the hysteresis effect. It is not "memory" of previous tones, simply "memory" of the previous half wave. Any alternating current (read: audio) would trigger the effect. It could well be a static 1 kHz test tone. The result is seen as distortion.
 

Julf

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Matias

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Even when it varies with frequency, it is not an issue as long as the shift isn't extreme or varies wildly. Have you looked at the phase plots of typical passive speaker crossovers?
Also the step response of 99% of passive speakers out there is simply not time coincident.
 

maty

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If the phase varies at the output of the amplifier we will have a new variable that will affect the sound of the speakers, with its own phase curve, which is what I commented on the diyaudio thread.

As expensive as they are, they should not add a new variable to the equation versus traditional class A and AB technology.
 

March Audio

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If the phase varies at the output of the amplifier we will have a new variable that will affect the sound of the speakers, with its own phase curve, which is what I commented on the diyaudio thread.

As expensive as they are, they should not add a new variable to the equation versus traditional class A and AB technology.

and you still dont understand what Bruno is saying - it is not a variable, it is a fixed time delay which is of no consequence.

Perhaps it would be easier for you to understand if I use your techniques of random colours and fonts

it is not a variable, it is a fixed time delay which is of no consequence
 

BDWoody

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If the phase varies at the output of the amplifier we will have a new variable that will affect the sound of the speakers, with its own phase curve, which is what I commented on the diyaudio thread.

As expensive as they are, they should not add a new variable to the equation versus traditional class A and AB technology.

How about a blind test?
Ahhh...right...what was I thinking...
 

Tks

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and you still dont understand what Bruno is saying - it is not a variable, it is a fixed time delay which is of no consequence.

Perhaps it would be easier for you to understand if I use your techniques of random colours and fonts

it is not a variable, it is a fixed time delay which is of no consequence

Love the style at the end
 

audioBliss

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What ever issues there might be it seems we are well within the region of diminishing returns..(I'm taking about the nc400 here.) If we started looking this close at almost any other amp I think we will find even worse issues.
 

Julf

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What ever issues there might be it seems we are well within the region of diminishing returns..(I'm taking about the nc400 here.) If we started looking this close at almost any other amp I think we will find even worse issues.

Indeed, but I guess it is part of the audiophile mindset that no matter how good your gear is, when you hear there is something potentially even better, you are not happy with the old stuff any more. Some people listen to music, some to their gear, and some obsess. :)
 

kaka89

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We have seen enough discussion around phase shift/time delay.

Can we talk about who has the best designed 1ET400A case now?
 
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