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Review and Measurements of PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC

Bliman

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There was really no substantive criticism. And Amir has never hesitated to share project files so anyone can examine his results.

FWIW, we've both measured the same sample of at least two different pieces of gear and gotten essentially identical results.
It is so difficult if you don't have the knowledge. Then you basically have to believe one over the other. So the measurements on the other site are wrong?
I think I just have to believe one over the other because I don't have the knowledge. And I hope because there are so many people that have supreme knowledge here of the matter that it works as some sort of check of balances that if something was not right that it would be known very fast.
 

pozz

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I always thought Darko's claims here were absurd.
It seems like he's struggling a bit about his position. He's meeting interesting producers and engineers (who sometimes are no different when they go on about differences in gear) and had that one interview with an acoustics consultant.
 

GrimSurfer

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IMHO, age is extremely relevant to a discussion with anyone who claims to have exceptional hearing abilities. It is important to know that designers that eschew measurements for listening tests rely entirely on their hearing, and it is a fact that hearing deteriorates with age. It is not a personal attack to discuss the age of a DAC designer who says he designs by listening. Posting his photo here may or may not be considered a personal attack, but that depends on whether you think he looks funny, and is thus, subjective ;)

Correct, Sir!

Ted wasn't the funniest part of the photo.

IMG_1810.JPG


If you zoom in, the sign on the door says "Marriott Denver Tech Centre". That got me wondering if that was where the DirectStream DAC was developed. Between the fax machine and the waffle maker perhaps?

Not exactly the Lockheed Skunkworks, Lawrence Livermore Labs, or the JPL but it might explain a few things...

Made me chuckle. But humor is very subjective, so some may not appreciate the irony.
 
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Frank Dernie

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As an aside, psychological outcomes is too loaded a word. Hearing responses and limitations of hearing are physiological phenomena that can be tested. This is done in the treatment of many ear issues. For example, ear ringing in response to only certain frequencies. Hearing fatigue when exposed to sound (volume or frequency related) is also a physiological phenomena.

I think, the valid issue you are pointing to is that these physiological characteristics vary from person to person so how is one supposed to predict what any individual will perceive it as. But not because it is some unknowable psychological factor.

First of all, from a science methodology point of view, difficulty in knowing something does not excuse making invalid inferences from observation. So, the point about limitations of the inferences we can make on audibility still stands based on measurements. I was not making any point there about how anyone is supposed to compensate for it in equipment or measurement design, that is a different issue altogether.

In Science, one does not have to be ready with an alternative to invalidate an inference or assign a limitation.

Second, while individual characteristics vary, there are probabilistic categorizations we make in science all the time because human characteristics fall into broad categories. For example, what is a safe cholesterol/blood sugar level in a probabilistic sense. Weather is extremely difficult to forecast beyond 5 days because the number of data points needed and the variables needed are far too many in practice. Yet, we make probabilistic forecasts. So, science techniques exist to handle these things. In some cases, more study is needed.

For, example, threshold of noise audibility. We have some general numbers on what noise is audible or not in volume and frequency ranges. These are probabilistic as there are individual characteristics and we could still consider a cut off as being applicable to a larger band of population but with that caveat mentioned. The engineering equivalent of this is saying a DAC is fine as long as it is kept below an output level of xV.

Measurements beyond the threshold should not be included in a metric to assess the deviation from the input if the cumulative “score” can be a mix of inaudible artifacts adding up. This is a wrong metric design to use if one is making an inference on the impact on audibility of a measurement. Yes, there are some qualitative statements made that certain things are likely inaudible but still using those in any cumulative metric is problematic (except from an engineering deviation from input perspective where audibility is not the criterion).

Unfortunately, an indiscriminate reliance on things like SINAD because it is easy for people to consume when put on a comparison table between equipment to make inferences on audibility is not a valid approach. As an engineering excellence goal, sure why not ... as long as one recognizes it as such.

The gap that really exists in science between measurement and audibility is the lack of studies on correlations between qualitative hearing perception with measurable metrics. I have said this before. What would be much more valuable is a correlational table beween things like perception of detail, stage, warmth/brightness, etc., to specific measurable things. With that you could make probabilistic and useful statements such as equipment X will likely appeal to people who like Y or that if you liked X you will probably like Y at half the price. That is far more useful than current metrics but we have long ways to get there.

We certainly cannot assume the current measurements are the last word on audibility evaluation because the correlation between these numbers and audible perception is poor and ill-defined. The latter cannot be just dismissed as if only there were “controlled tests there would be good correlation...”. That is just copping out. Until then there will always be a group that will reject these measurements and for a justifiable reason.
But the criterion for High Fidelity should, IMO, be accurate reproduction.
This is entirely measurable to a level way beyond the capability of anybody's ears.
If a product is being prototyped to add a certain colour to the sound maybe loads of people will like it, and that is fine, but it isn't high fidelity and it may well be that the niceness isn't appreciated on every recording.
I rather prefer the approach of having one's equipment as accurate as possible and adding any "colour" knowingly, either by adding a buffer which beautifully but subtly mangles the signal in a way one likes or, as I can (but don't) use a plug-in to emulate the colouration of one (or some) of many known components, such as magnetic tape saturation or valve amplifier. There are plenty about and usually cheaper than having a fixed euphonic "grodger ™" in the system.
 

Ron Texas

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It seems like he's struggling a bit about his position. He's meeting interesting producers and engineers (who sometimes are no different when they go on about differences in gear) and had that one interview with an acoustics consultant.

Darko moved from Australia to Berlin which is sort of the opposite of what most people would want to do.
 

SIY

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So the measurements on the other site are wrong?

I don't know, I haven't analyzed them. In the case of at least one item, when Amir looked at their measurements, they actually agreed with his.

I have a few disagreements with his methodology, but his results are solid.
 

Frank Dernie

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We certainly cannot assume the current measurements are the last word on audibility evaluation because the correlation between these numbers and audible perception is poor and ill-defined.
Not really, though plenty of people mention this.
The only thing coming out of a microphone is an electrical signal. It has magnitude, frequency and phase. We can measure all of these and there isn't anything else.
No magic. If the variations in these parameters introduced by the equipment are small enough it can not be having any influence on the sound. There is debate about what level of deviation from accuracy is detectable by ear but I don't know of anybody seriously suggesting that ears cans sense levels of distortion or noise at a level better than measuring instruments, and IME very, very much less.
 

maty

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Be honest, my [dark humorous] point about non-ferrous component cases appears to have sailed over your head, didn't it?

In Spain ETA killed almost 900 people. In Tarragona, my home, they were about to provoke a killing with a powerful bomb in the petrochemical complex. Yesterday, a new group, were arrested seven terrorists in Catalonia, with material to make homemade bombs and make them explode on October 1.

You can criticize his technical ability. Using the Internet, taking advantage of anonymity to despise people, however widespread the practice is ALWAYS wrong.
 

jtwrace

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IMHO, age is extremely relevant to a discussion with anyone who claims to have exceptional hearing abilities. It is important to know that designers that eschew measurements for listening tests rely entirely on their hearing, and it is a fact that hearing deteriorates with age. It is not a personal attack to discuss the age of a DAC designer who says he designs by listening. Posting his photo here may or may not be considered a personal attack, but that depends on whether you think he looks funny, and is thus, subjective ;)

Ted has said that he is nearly deaf in one ear and has sever tinnitus. While that really is unfortunate and sucks, I think it's pretty important.

@amirm see here:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/upcoming-ds-release/11935/19
 

audioBliss

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I find it quite funny, sad and amazing that so many people that say they love audio bash this site once they find out that their expensive gear measures like crap. I mean come on be grateful. This is the most fun I've had in the hobby in a long time seeing all these people trying to defend useless products that would be better used as door stops.
 

BillG

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Darko is part of the business model. They need shill's to sell their wares. He is that shill. Just take a look at his top recommendations. Enough said.

Yeah, I'm well aware of how he appears to operate. However, whether it's intentional or not is debatable - I don't have access to the inner workings for his mind nor his finances... ;)
 

JJB70

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TotalDAC and PS Audio put all those AVRs into context. I mean I don't want to defend poor measuring AVRs but those products cost an awful lot less, pack an awful lot (including 7 or more channels of power amplification, multi-mode DSP etc) and generally sound perfectly fine (whatever their measurements might say). Compared to this PS DAC or the TotalDAC DAC they're exceptional products, ot that that is saying much., but nevertheless.....
 

AudioSceptic

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That worries me.
I have come here because I wanted another tool in search of best value/performance gear.
Me personally doesn't know half what is written here. But I used his measurements to know how good a product is. Just like magazines use words to describe how good a product is.
But now I read on this other site that maybe the measurements are not done in the right way. This leads to a situation where I don't know what to believe anymore. Because I don't know all these technical stuff.
So it would be great if Amir would address these points.
Now it seems like there can be more different measurements taken and that the analyzer was not calibrated right. And we are again back at the start. Because then we have to choose whose measurements we believe. This is frustrating for someone with little knowledge.
There are many technical experts here and if there were errors in Amir's methodology they would not go unnoticed. He has made mistakes in the past, but has always corrected them when they've been pointed out. Does "this other site" welcome this level of scrutiny?
 

AudioSceptic

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TotalDAC and PS Audio put all those AVRs into context. I mean I don't want to defend poor measuring AVRs but those products cost an awful lot less, pack an awful lot (including 7 or more channels of power amplification, multi-mode DSP etc) and generally sound perfectly fine (whatever their measurements might say). Compared to this PS DAC or the TotalDAC DAC they're exceptional products, ot that that is saying much., but nevertheless.....
Those AVRs are like Swiss Army knives: they aren't the best at anything but they do an awful lot and all of it to an acceptable level. Some of these overpriced boutique DACs are more like a plastic disposable knife that can't even do the one thing of cutting anything properly, but are disguised to look something special and cost a fortune.
 

mitchco

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As to UpTone, their product had a clear design flaw which I discovered.
Leading to redesign:
So yes, Swenson designed products that create problems because he didn't know how to test them. At best they do nothing good. At worse, they mess up the performance of the system. This is the power of objective measurements. They reveal the truth in audio. Audiophile listening doesn't.

Slightly OT, I hope you get an opportunity to test out the new EtherREGEN:
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...oduction/page/54/?tab=comments#comment-992008
 
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