Review and Measurements of Paradigm PW-Link Streamer/DAC

[pbc]

One issue I seem to be having (Unison) is the music cutting out every few minutes. Cuts out, then starts up again a few seconds later. I put in a powerline ethernet adaptor I had lying around, hasn't really helped.

Sounds really good other than that, even with my Polk Audio RTi3 bookshelves. Which I have an opportunity to maybe upgrade to Revel M16's, though I keep wondering how big a diff it will make (I listen at fairly low levels since they are 6 feet from me and maybe an hour total a week)!

 

[hpp8140]

One issue I seem to be having (Unison) is the music cutting out every few minutes. Cuts out, then starts up again a few seconds later. I put in a powerline ethernet adaptor I had lying around, hasn't really helped.

Sounds really good other than that, even with my Polk Audio RTi3 bookshelves. Which I have an opportunity to maybe upgrade to Revel M16's, though I keep wondering how big a diff it will make (I listen at fairly low levels since they are 6 feet from me and maybe an hour total a week)!

How and what service are you streaming when it cuts out? The downside to the PlayFi implementation is that the app streams to the hardware device. The device does not directly connect to the service, so it does may not help if you hardwire...the bottle neck will be the speed of the app mobile device. They have added the ability to transfer playback from the app to the the PlayFi hardware (similar to chromecast), but doesn't work well for all services.

 

[pbc]

I’m streaming from Tidal. Doesn’t matter if I str from my phone or from my laptop.

 

[WesParker]

I’m streaming from Tidal. Doesn’t matter if I str from my phone or from my laptop.

it might be your player, I had this trouble sometimes when I used and older iPad. A newer iPad resolved. But also the transfer playback button works a lot better than it used to. Once I transfer playback, I never have issues.

 

[pbc]

it might be your player, I had this trouble sometimes when I used and older iPad. A newer iPad resolved. But also the transfer playback button works a lot better than it used to. Once I transfer playback, I never have issues.

Using an iphone13 and a brand new laptop (and tried a Surface Pro 9).

Maybe will try and see if the transfer button works better now that I have it connected to a power line device.

That or figure out a different streaming device hardwired to the Unison for ARC. Though I was hoping to keep the area uncluttered (already have the Unison and Aiyima amp and was thinking of a small DAC…so didn’t want 4 boxes on my subwoofer).

 

[haskellcurrying]

I realize I'm late to the party, but I'm thinking about snagging one of these up.

Long story short: My sub bit the dust and I picked up a paradigm V10 as a replacement. I wanted built-in sub/room EQ so I could move my antimode into another room. The V10 supports ARC and down the rabbit hole I went.

My situation/question: I would be slotting this in (optical in / optical out) before my E50, which is in turn going (via balanced output) to my amp. I get that the Link has some internal error that will cascade out to my E50 in the digital domain. As such, I need to reduce the output volume/voltage from my E50 to the amp. However, Amir's original threshold for an external dac (~1.5V) was for unbalanced output. 1.5V is a really low voltage for balanced output. Is the threshold relative, ie 1.5/2=(x^y)/4.2, x=3.15, if y=1(a linear scaling with voltage), so 3.15V or am I stuck closer to 1.5V?

Unrelated, I really wish I got in when the link was still $150. $200 for something that is fundamentally broken feels pretty steep.

 

[pbc]

Curious, can I hook up a Chromecast to this unit to act as the streamer and just use the Martin Logan Unison for ARC?

I purchased an HDMI Audio extractor but can’t seem to get audio to the Unison.

https://a.co/d/d6LgrVH

Hooked up the Chromecast HDMI to the HDMi in on the extractor. Then plugged an optical cable from the Extractor to the Unison.

Then tried playing some Tidal tracks and selecting the Chromecast as the device to be streamed to.

But not getting any sound?

Connecting the Chromecast to my PC monitor and sending Tidal to it from my phone worked fine. But not to the Unison. Not sure if it’s the Unison or the Audio extractor.

 

[aerochrome2]

Curious, can I hook up a Chromecast to this unit to act as the streamer and just use the Martin Logan Unison for ARC?

I purchased an HDMI Audio extractor but can’t seem to get audio to the Unison.

Hooked up the Chromecast HDMI to the HDMi in on the extractor. Then plugged an optical cable from the Extractor to the Unison.

Then tried playing some Tidal tracks and selecting the Chromecast as the device to be streamed to.

But not getting any sound?

I don't know anything about your chain, but one thing to check is that your input is on digital not analog (or on automatic). See the manual to try that.

 

[pbc]

I don't know anything about your chain, but one thing to check is that your input is on digital not analog (or on automatic). See the manual to try that.

Thanks that was it.

 

[yoster]

First of all, appreciation for all the forum members here and their extremely helpful content along the way.

I just purchased one of these units (used) and am quite excited to use it. I am using it *purely* as a DSP from my computer to integrated amplifier (receiver). Zero use of the phone apps, wireless streaming etc. Nabbed it for $125 - seems like an awesome unit to a) use ARC Genesis (very curious to see how my speakers/room measure!) and b) general "better than receiver-based" room correction. Will likely be using RCA input/output, as I have a highly modded ZxR sound card, where I will be doing much of my EQ tweaking (using results of ARC from this unit).

If it's anything like the JBL MS-8 (long discontinued) DSP that I use in my truck, I think I'll be extremely satisfied.

 

[Blink Too Fast]

What a great resource - I've read all pages over three sittings, and am musing between PW AMP, PW LINK, ML Forte, ML Unison.

I want to add ARC to an existing Zone 2. How best to do this?

I have an Anthem MRX720, which has 7 partially assignable speaker outputs, and a 5 channel power amp, which is wholly assignable.
The MRX has ARC on Zone 1, which I use in a 5.1 configuration, and has no ARC on Zone 2, which I use in a 2.0 configuration.
All speakers are passive. The sub is powered.
I have an unused powered sub that might be useful in Zone 2, but not a requirement.

Zone 2 is in my office. All the electronics are in the 5.1 room, with long speaker cables back to my office. I tend to control Zone 2 from my office laptop over wifi to an NVidia Shield that serves up Spotify to the MRX.
I do not currently use PlayFi.
I do have Apple IOS and MS Windows devices, so I assume can use AirPlay but do not currently.

So... I'm looking at a plethora of optical in/out, line in/out, and speakers connections on the Anthem, and a smaller mix of inputs/outputs on the PW & ML systems. The optical out on the MRX may only be a passthrough of optical/coax in, not also the audio stream from an HDMI signal. I think I do not have a way to test this.

There seems to be several combinations of having a LINK/Unison in the 5.1 room, or an AMP/Forte in either the 5.1 room or my office, each with pros & cons.
Complicating that seems to be the combinations of interfaces of Spotify, Shield, PlayFi, AirPlay on the Forte/Unison, (and Chromecast if I buy a dongle).
And the distraction of possibly turning my 2.0 into 2.1.

My head is spinning. What is likely the best way forward?

 

[Blink Too Fast]

Is my thinking right if I follow this approach?

1. Get a $10 HMDI->SPDIF splitter.
2. Use the splitter to take 2.0 audio from HDMI Out 2 on the receiver.
3. Feed SPDIF from the splitter to a LINK/Unison.
4. Use the LINK/Unison as the input for Zone 2.
5. Run ARC in Zone 2 on the Unison.
6. Be happy.

I think this means I can:

1. continue to use the NVidia Shield as my only source (I use CD & BluRay, too, but not for Zone 2).
2. continue to use HDMI for Zone 1 using the receiver 5.1 ARC.
3. use the Unison 2.0 ARC for Zone 2.
4. continue to use the Shield & Spotify interfaces, and avoid PlayFi, AirPlay, and Cast interfaces.
5. keep everything digital and avoid any new DAC-ADC-DAC conversions.
6. avoid a splitter in the path of Zone 1 (which uses HDMI Out 1).
7. continue to use exactly the same receiver and power amp speaker outs.
8. continue to use the same speaker cabling.
9. avoid the AMP/Forte amps.
10. avoid ever touching the Unison after it is plugged in.
11. keep the Unison and splitter out of sight behind the receiver or TV.
12. optionally introduce a spare powered sub to Zone 2 into the full-range 2.0 signal (not 2.1) at line level (not sub-out) from the receiver, or at speaker level.

And that I cannot

1. use 2.1 ARC, unless I use an AMP/Forte.
2. use a dedicated sub-out, unless I use an AMP/Forte.

 

[Blink Too Fast]

Good news, bad news, great news...

Unison & $7 HDMI->SPDIF splitter arrived.
There is no headphones or optical output signal from the splitter. I do not know if that is a function of the HDMI input signal, or if the splitter is defective. But read to the bottom for the good news.


I connected Unison to ethernet because I have an ethernet switch next to the hifi.


I set up ARC without a source. That was hassle-free (I use ARC on my MRX720 receiver, so am comfortable with that).


I used the headphone socket on my PC as a source for the Unison. Undesirable, but worked.


And then...

...I noticed Spotify connects directly to the Unison via the house network, through PlayFi. Without me needing to install or interact with PlayFi in any way!!!
Oo, that's an unplanned bonus.
This means I can use Unison & Zone 2 without the Shield, the splitter, the TV, nor Zone 1 on the receiver to power the TV, which also means the power amp won't turn on. Nor even any optical or RCA cables to the Unison.
This is much cleaner than expected.


Now have:
Spotify from any device -> PlayFi over WiFi -> router -> ethernet -> ethernet switch -> Unison (ARC 2.0) -> Toslink -> Receiver Z2 -> long speaker cables to zone 2.
and
Shield -> HDMI -> Receiver Z1 (ARC 5.1) -> TV, powered sub & power amp -> 5 speakers.

 

[Redogfizbal]

Sorry if this has been answered. If I use a dac with rca out to the unison, and then use the rca out on the unison to a volume controlled amplifier. Will that be completely bypassing the internal dac on the unison?

 

[Blink Too Fast]

Sorry if this has been answered. If I use a dac with rca out to the unison, and then use the rca out on the unison to a volume controlled amplifier. Will that be completely bypassing the internal dac on the unison?

I think that will use your DAC
Then the Unison ADC
Then the Unison ARC digital filtering
Then the Unison DAC

I think you invented the worst case scenario.

What you really want is a source with a digital out, give that to the Unison, then find an amp with a digital in.

Or...

Give the Unison a digital in, then take the digital out from the Unison and give it to your external DAC, then the RCA from that to the amp.

 

[Blink Too Fast]

Update on my exploits on the very rare chance that anyone cares.

I bought the Martin Logan Unison (a different shape, but otherwise the same as the PW-LINK)
I picked up a Douk Audio H7 with RCA & XLR inputs at Amazon Warehouse for $100
I could take the RCA outs from the Unison to the H7, but Amir has shown the DAC is sub optimal.
I remembered I have an unused Yulong D100 DAC/headphone AMP. It has Optical/Coax/AES/USB inputs, and XLR outputs
Powering the ProAc Tablette Eights, with ARC, it sounds lovely.
And it's tidy.

Cloud (wifi ->) Unison w/ ARC (optical ->) Yulong D100 (XLR ->) Douk Audio H7 (speaker cable ->) Proac Tablette Eights


Like @amirm , I swore a bit about DTS Playfi. After finding the right magic swear words, it works great.

Using just WPS wifi connect, the Unison (and the Forte) both connect to my router. But they forget it when turned off-and on.
Using DTS PlayFi software on my PC to setup the Unison & Forte, they stay connected to wifi, even without the PC and through power cycles. "Setting up" achieves two things:
1/ It gives the router wifi password to the Unison & Forte, so they don't need to rely on WPS.
2/ It gives the opportunity to give the device a proper name instead of 03E34DC2

With the device nicely connected to the network, some other things happen.
Turns out Spotify can use PlayFi devices natively without PlayFi getting involved. And once initiated, the PC or phone or whatever can be turned off and the device continues.
(And I think Spotify can use my music library on my NAS, though I've not set it up to do so)
Anything else from the PC or phone can be sent wirelessly to the devices via PlayFi software.
I realized I have multiple PlayFi devices in the house (wasn't planned), and I can synchronise them all together using PlayFi software, but the PC or phone does need to stay on for this to work.

With the Yulong D100, I can also feed USB into the chain. Might be interesting to integrate an MS Surface Pro 5 fanless, keyboardless tablet into that.

 

[Blink Too Fast]

And now I've goofed around a bit more comparing
Martin Logan Forte + Proac Tablettes
Martin Logan Forte + Proac Tablettes + subwoofer
Martin Logan Unison + Yulong D100 DAC + Douk Audio H7 + Proac Tablettes
All using ARC, all manually tweaked.

Yeah, the Unison + DAC + H7 blows away the Forte options.

I didn't try the Unison + H7 without the DAC.
There is no Forte + H7 option - the Forte does not have line outs.

 

[Blink Too Fast]

Oh, now I tried the analogue inputs on the Unison.
That would be clipping distortion.
Tried it with two different CD players. Same clipping result. Won't be using that input again.

 

[stumper3819]

Hi guys, I recently ordered a Martin Logan Unison, mostly for the ARC room correction. I plan to use 2 subs. The manual states I should run the L/R analog out to my sub. I would think I should be able to run 1 cable to each sub. Am I wrong? I suppose I could daisy chain the second sub if needed. Any thoughts/opinions?

Thanks

 

[nathan]

Hi guys, I recently ordered a Martin Logan Unison, mostly for the ARC room correction. I plan to use 2 subs. The manual states I should run the L/R analog out to my sub. I would think I should be able to run 1 cable to each sub. Am I wrong? I suppose I could daisy chain the second sub if needed. Any thoughts/opinions?

Thanks

Some people like stereo subs. The Harman research shows that controlling room modes works great with multiple subs all playing a mono signal (though with different timing/phase adjustment, and sometimes with slightly different EQ). Trouble is, the Unison doesn't have a summed mono subwoofer output.

When I was running a setup like you describe, I used a MIniDSP on the stereo analog output. The MiniDSP did my bass management (high pass filter for my mains, low pass filter for the subwoofer output) and, if I recall correctly (it has been a few years) gave me dual summed mono outputs for my subwoofers, time aligned with one another, and with the mains. Then, running ARC let the whole system get EQed nicely.

Either in this thread or in the thread about the Paradigm equivalent device there was a nice complete description I used to get me started in that approach. I wish I could attribute it better. Here are my notes copied from a post in the Paradigm thread:

PW LINK AND AMP INFO


> Procedure for 2.1 channel DRC with PW link.


I have written earlier that the PW link unlike the PW amp is a 2.0 unit and so ARC sees it as a 2 channel system and so provides no ability to do bass management.


If you have a separate sub, this may not only make the correction unsatisfactory but possibly even worse because of the way ARC genesis works.


To incorporate a sub, here are the steps and workarounds and some tips from my experimentation.


There are 3 things bass management does that is important:


1. The crossover setting between the main speakers and the sub


2. The correction for distance between them


3. The level balance between them


Most modern equipment preamps, integrated amps, AVRs, etc should allow at least the first and third.


You cannot use the PW link to connect to a power amp directly and also connect to a sub woofer (even a powered one).


So, I will assume you have something downstream (integrated amp, receiver/AVR, etc) that you can connect to with bass management even if a minimal one.


Before you use PW link DRC, you will need to set up bass management. Then for pw link, it will look like two full range speakers. Not as ideal as seeing all three separately because the left and right corrections may clash with each other but reasonably acceptable.




Crossover frequencies:


You will need to decide on your own what crossover frequency to use for the sub woofer. Either by using something like REW (you can use the ARC mic to do this) to measure all speakers and decide what works or you can pick a couple reasonable ones like 80hz and 100hz and try the PW link DRC in each case and see which end result sounds better for you.




Distance setting:


This is not easy to do for a subwoofer (REW acoustic reference is outside the subwoofer range to get accurate results) even with tools so just eyeball the distances and set that in your downstream component assuming this setting is available. It is not that critical.




Level balancing:



This is critical to get a good DRC. But there is a twist to normal level balancing before applying DRC, especially with the 2 channel only correction as in this case. A target to get good DRC measurement is setting the speaker out level as measured by a mic or spl meter at 75db or about 30db above floor noise level whichever is greater with -20db pink noise generator and -10db preamp gain.


First, ARC requires more, so I had to set it for the above to balance and then crank up the preamp gain to 0db reference level to measure reliably with ARC.


Second, you will find that setting the subwoofer output level about 10db higher (by turning up the gain in the powered subwoofer and/or the pre gain for the sub out in the pre) relative to the L and R before correction yields better results with this procedure here. The reason is partly the way ARC genesis works as explained below.


Once you do the above, the the procedure is as guided by ARC to measure and get the L and R with the downstream crossover making each speaker look full range.

You can use ARC genesis in auto mode and see if the correction sounds good. It may or may not with a separate subwoofer. To see if the correction has a problem with lower frequencies, you will need to go into the manual/professional mode. You can open the auto-corrected saved file in this mode and look at the target adjustments being made where you can specify your own target slopes, etc.


An important thing to check here is whether the crossover frequency used by ARC genesis to generate for the auto mode is near the crossover frequency you have set downstream. It shouldn’t be. In fact, it should be as low as possible to the hearing threshold or at least below 30hz, so that the L and R are treated as LARGE speakers. The software does not allow you to specify this explicitly. If it is at say 100hz or so, then no DRC is applied below that frequency for the L and R speakers and since PW link only does L and R, you are not getting any DRC using PW link where it makes the most difference!


You may be tempted to change this frequency in the ARC genesis software to extend the target to cover the lower frequencies and regenerate but this is not the best thing to do and may make it sound worse by trying to boost the lower frequencies with filters.


If you are getting the used crossover frequency in ARC genesis well into the sub woofer range (50-100hz) then this means the relative subwoofer level you had picked earlier was too low. This is what happens if you had set the subwoofer level to be similar to the mains. This is why setting 10db or so over mains for subwoofer is necessary. If you set it this way, then you will see ARC genesis has set the crossover frequency closer to 20hz or so and so doing the DRC over the entire range and so the sounds from your downstream 2.1 with the crossover will be much smoother and better.


And a final tip on the correction at higher frequencies. ARC by default uses a 5khz cutoff for correction. Most people even recommend not doing any correction in mid to higher frequencies. In the latest ARC Genesis software you can extend this limit to 20khz. I would say go ahead and try it because I have noticed that ARC is very conservative in what it does at higher frequencies. It appears that it is mostly using a shelf filter to lift the entire spectrum at higher frequencies and not attempting much to smooth out dips and peaks. So, this is more like setting a tonal balance especially if your speakers are too bright sounding or have a steep roll-off at higher frquencies.


Set the DRC limit to 20khz and play with the tilt to make it less bright or more to find what sounds best for you.


The above might seem like a long process but it only needs to be done once (until you rearrange the room/furniture) and the results worth it.

—————————
>Additional info:

Default behavior is for the volume control to impact analog and digital outputs, but one can set it up for a fixed line level output (otherwise one is left guessing what volume setting in neutral gain) by pressing the MUTE + DOWN VOLUME buttons for five seconds. (This is a toggle.)

Also, one can turn ARC off and on by holding the MUTE button for five seconds. Nice way to a/b the impact of ARC.

Finally, to avoid playing whack-a-mole with input selection one can set it to default to external inputs when playfi is not active by holding the input button for five seconds. (This is useful if one is using the streaming features sometimes, and other times wants the external input to be active -- just stop the playfi streaming, and it will revert back to accepting the input from the external inputs.)