Review and Measurements of Okto DAC8 8Ch DAC & Amp

[mdsimon2]

BTW, I am just searching/learning about the rather old-fashion sync mechanism of S/PDIF and AES/EBU.
I hope your web browser would properly translate this web article into English or your language.

We can easily understand that "sync mechanism of S/PDIF and AES/EBU" has already become really outdated in comparison with present "SOTA" Dante and/or Ravenna on so-common-now GigaBit ethernet LAN protocols. The "inter-sync" implementation between home-use affordable digital audio gears, therefore, looks far behind the already available and affordable SOTA technologies, I believe.

In any way, I would be really happy if DAC8PRO "MkII(?)" would have nice master oscillator clocking (10 MHz?) block in it and would have master-clock out/in BNC design so that the second slave DAC8PRO "MkII" can be precisely completely in-sync with the master one; then of course PC-DSP should be able to recognize, by USB-ASIO driver, the total of 16-Ch or 14-Ch for DSP-based multichannel audio processing.

From technical point of view (not from market size and profitability), it is now very easy to implement such "clocking I/O block" in DAC gears since e.g. TEAC CG-10M-A High-Precision Master Clock Generator ( 4-BNC outputs of 10 MHz master clock) is available and affordable around USD 1,000.

I do hope Pavel of OKTO is still keeping his eyes on this thread.

They have already stated they are against a word clock input:

Q: Why doesn't the dac8 PRO have a word clock input?
A: When processing AES/EBU inputs, the clock is encoded with the signal. This means that even if multiple DACs are used, they will always operate synchronously with the source device. Additionally, the clock recovered by the dac8 PRO from the AES/EBU stream has lower jitter compared to the word clock received from a standalone unit, which is then internally multiplied upon reception to match the frequency used by the DAC chip. You can find online measurements comparing these two methods using competitor DACs. These comparisons typically show superior analog performance using the clock recovered from AES/EBU signal.

The other thing that goes unsaid in the FAQ is that although the XMOS uses the AES recovered clock, the DAC chip itself always uses a local oscillator as described here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/post-333521.

I don't see how SPDIF/AES are "far behind" Dante/Ravenna, other than that they require physical cables. Seems to me like you are searching for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

The biggest unknown in all of this is how connecting two Oktos to a single PC will behave. Can they use the same driver? Do they need to use different drivers? Even if they are clocked the same does the PC data start at the same time or is one DAC offset from the other? Pavel described these issues in a reply to you three years ago -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/post-450024.

Michael

 

[TaxTime]

What advantage(s) is/are there to using an ASIO driver (of any flavor) - other than latency - now that Windows is UAC2 compliant?

 

[poopy]

As long as the Altitude doesn't support Dante / Ravenna / AES67 (promised for "when it's ready"), the only way to get 16 channels out from a PC is the 16 channel AES in of the Altitude 32, so that doesn't get you anywhere.

Yes, JBL SDP-58 + Focusrite Rednet D16 would be about half price compared to the Altitude 32. And it is also Roon ready etc..

Why don't you cut out the middleman and get a RME HDSPe AES or something similar?

Thanks for mentioning this, forgot about this option

 

[Zooqu1ko]

Yes, JBL SDP-58 + Focusrite Rednet D16 would be about half price compared to the Altitude 32. And it is also Roon ready etc..

The Rednet D16 + Dante Virtual Soundcard would be the cheaper option to feed 2 Okto DAC8Pro from a computer. Does the SDP-58 even support multichannel Dante input?

 

[poopy]

The Rednet D16 + Dante Virtual Soundcard would be the cheaper option to feed 2 Okto DAC8Pro from a computer. Does the SDP-58 even support multichannel Dante input?

Only 16 channel outputs with the SDP-58.

Don't get me wrong. My point was rather giving an option involving an AV pre-pro which can output 16 digital channels, in addition to decoding all the usual audio formats in HC.

 

[Zooqu1ko]

Only 16 channel outputs with the SDP-58.

Don't get me wrong. My point was rather giving an option involving an AV pre-pro which can output 16 digital channels, in addition to decoding all the usual audio formats in HC.

And the JBL has none of the crossover options that are available in the Altitude, which would make the multichannel input unnecessary for dualazmak's setup, since a simple 2 channel digital input would be sufficient.

 

[AudioJester]

Really thank you for good news, since mine is also v1.32.
May I ask you which "method/route" did you use for the firmware update?

I could only do it with the linux usb stick, windows did not work. Also there are 2 fw versions to go through, have to start the process from scratch each time

 

[dualazmak]

They have already stated they are against a word clock input:

Q: Why doesn't the dac8 PRO have a word clock input?
A: When processing AES/EBU inputs, the clock is encoded with the signal. This means that even if multiple DACs are used, they will always operate synchronously with the source device. Additionally, the clock recovered by the dac8 PRO from the AES/EBU stream has lower jitter compared to the word clock received from a standalone unit, which is then internally multiplied upon reception to match the frequency used by the DAC chip. You can find online measurements comparing these two methods using competitor DACs. These comparisons typically show superior analog performance using the clock recovered from AES/EBU signal.

The other thing that goes unsaid in the FAQ is that although the XMOS uses the AES recovered clock, the DAC chip itself always uses a local oscillator as described here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/post-333521.

I don't see how SPDIF/AES are "far behind" Dante/Ravenna, other than that they require physical cables. Seems to me like you are searching for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

The biggest unknown in all of this is how connecting two Oktos to a single PC will behave. Can they use the same driver? Do they need to use different drivers? Even if they are clocked the same does the PC data start at the same time or is one DAC offset from the other? Pavel described these issues in a reply to you three years ago -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/post-450024.

Michael

Thank you so much for your kind reminders.

Yes, I well remember Pavel's kind reply to my inquiry three year ago;
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/post-450024.
where he wrote;
"We have yet to test how a USB host running Windows will cope with two units and whether Thesycon, ASIO4ALL or both drivers will need to be used."
As you kindly pointed, this unsolved big issue (at least for me) is still waiting to be solved/answered, but I believe it would be highly "hopeless".
Nevertheless, I dared asking again since now we have new firmware and new USB ASIO driver.


BTW, let me share one very niche and very much exceptional "in-brain simulation" I have.

I heard that the new firmware v.1.51 can only recognize/operate the new USB-ASIO driver "OktoResearchUsbAudio_v5.57.0_2023-04-26";
this means the older firmware v1.32 (my present) can only recognize/operate the old USB-ASIO driver "DIYINHK_UsbAudio_v4.59.0_2019-02-28".

So what would be happening if I connect by USB cables two of DAC8PRO, one is fw v.1.51 another is fw v.1.32, to one Windows PC having installed the both of USB-ASIO drivers?? Of course, the "how to synchronize the two DAC8PROs" is still another issue.

The background and reasons for this "in-brain simulation" are that I actually use two DACs, KORG-DAC-10 and OKTO DAC8PRO (even not fully in-sync with each other), using their own USB-ASIO drivers, in my present/latest audio rig.

Maybe nobody knows including Pavel, but I believe Pavel would be the only person who can test the above...

 

[dualazmak]

What advantage(s) is/are there to using an ASIO driver (of any flavor) - other than latency - now that Windows is UAC2 compliant?

At least in my case, I have historic and practical (and personal?) "reasons" for sticking to "All-in-ASIO" signal routing within PC. If you would be interested please kindly refer to my post here.

 

[dualazmak]

I could only do it with the linux usb stick, windows did not work. Also there are 2 fw versions to go through, have to start the process from scratch each time

Thank you for the important information.
May I ask you what do you exactly mean by "there are 2 fw versions to go through"?

 

[dualazmak]

Hello friends,

After my intensive consideration and insights on multiple "ASIO" routing in Windows OS (or in MAC OS), now I become rather reluctant in establishing completely in-sync operation/utilization of two independent DAC units by using each of the dedicated USB-ASIO drivers, even if the two unit could be synced by common BNC clocking signal of 10 MHz or any of the common WordClock inputs.

I still feel and hope, however, maybe I (we) possibly can find some "acceptable compromisation" or "acceptable quasi- or pseudo-synchronization", since I actually have tested two independent DAC units together, OKTO DAC8PRO and OPPO SONICA-DAC, in my audio rig during the course of my intensive amplifier selection exploration (just e.g. ref. here). At least in that test sessions, I had no audible "drifted sync issue" at all even listening to 30 min long music tracks.

In the near future, I would like to further objectively measure (and validate?) focusing on "synchronization" using my OPPO SONICA-DAC, KORG DS-DAC-10, ONKYO DAC-1000(S), and even PC's motherboard integrated RealTek HD DAC, together with DAC8PRO; all of them can be independently recognized by DSP "EKIO" (and JRiver, Roon) through individual dedicated USB-ASIO driver within either of my audio dedicated two silent PCs (ref. here and here).

In this context, I am also interested in how frequently (and how precisely) the multiple ASIO routing would be "reset" while listening/playing a whole ripped CD album consists of e.g. 20 tracks.

 

[AudioJester]

Thank you for the important information.
May I ask you what do you exactly mean by "there are 2 fw versions to go through"?

The first time you update it goes to v1.45. The second time goes to v1.51.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello dear ASR friends,

As partly a follow-up of my post #2,412 above, just for your possible interest, today I posted here on my project thread;
Can I (we) temporarily synchronize outputs of multiple DAC units (each of them has own independent ASIO driver) in 10 micro second (0.01 msec) precision in DSP-based multichannel audio setup?: #783

Edit: Also this Part-2 post;
- Can I (we) temporarily synchronize outputs of multiple DAC units (each of them has own independent ASIO driver) in 10 micro second (0.01 msec) precision in DSP-based multichannel audio setup? Part-2: Simplified experiments without using audio mixer: #804

 

[Tachyon88]

Are orders currently open ? Trying to get one, but the pay icon wiggles when I try to complete it.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Hello friends,

After my intensive consideration and insights on multiple "ASIO" routing in Windows OS (or in MAC OS), now I become rather reluctant in establishing completely in-sync operation/utilization of two independent DAC units by using each of the dedicated USB-ASIO drivers, even if the two unit could be synced by common BNC clocking signal of 10 MHz or any of the common WordClock inputs.

I still feel and hope, however, maybe I (we) possibly can find some "acceptable compromisation" or "acceptable quasi- or pseudo-synchronization", since I actually have tested two independent DAC units together, OKTO DAC8PRO and OPPO SONICA-DAC, in my audio rig during the course of my intensive amplifier selection exploration (just e.g. ref. here). At least in that test sessions, I had no audible "drifted sync issue" at all even listening to 30 min long music tracks.

In the near future, I would like to further objectively measure (and validate?) focusing on "synchronization" using my OPPO SONICA-DAC, KORG DS-DAC-10, ONKYO DAC-1000(S), and even PC's motherboard integrated RealTek HD DAC, together with DAC8PRO; all of them can be independently recognized by DSP "EKIO" (and JRiver, Roon) through individual dedicated USB-ASIO driver within either of my audio dedicated two silent PCs (ref. here and here).

In this context, I am also interested in how frequently (and how precisely) the multiple ASIO routing would be "reset" while listening/playing a whole ripped CD album consists of e.g. 20 tracks.

Very encouraging what you have found out here. To me it means it might actually be possible to play more than 8 channels using multiple USB Dacs hooked up to either a Windows box or a Mac without experiencing noticable timing discontinuities provided you can measure and compensate for the initial difference it takes for each signal to be processed and output by the two different digital pathways b/c those differences will remain constant throughout the playback session.

I have at least four USB Dacs lying around, in addition to my Octo, and if ever the lords of Atmos allow their codec to be decoded on PC's, I would probably be able to put together, for a very modest sum, a small room Atmos home theater to play Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Tidal program material.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Are orders currently open ? Trying to get one, but the pay icon wiggles when I try to complete it.

I have one that has gone redundant in my setup, that I can sell you. It sounds absolutely stellar, but since I run an Atmos studio I knew it would eventually be replaced with a larger Merging system. It is in mint condition.

Send me a PM

 

[Ra1zel]

Hello friends,

After my intensive consideration and insights on multiple "ASIO" routing in Windows OS (or in MAC OS), now I become rather reluctant in establishing completely in-sync operation/utilization of two independent DAC units by using each of the dedicated USB-ASIO drivers, even if the two unit could be synced by common BNC clocking signal of 10 MHz or any of the common WordClock inputs.

I still feel and hope, however, maybe I (we) possibly can find some "acceptable compromisation" or "acceptable quasi- or pseudo-synchronization", since I actually have tested two independent DAC units together, OKTO DAC8PRO and OPPO SONICA-DAC, in my audio rig during the course of my intensive amplifier selection exploration (just e.g. ref. here). At least in that test sessions, I had no audible "drifted sync issue" at all even listening to 30 min long music tracks.

In the near future, I would like to further objectively measure (and validate?) focusing on "synchronization" using my OPPO SONICA-DAC, KORG DS-DAC-10, ONKYO DAC-1000(S), and even PC's motherboard integrated RealTek HD DAC, together with DAC8PRO; all of them can be independently recognized by DSP "EKIO" (and JRiver, Roon) through individual dedicated USB-ASIO driver within either of my audio dedicated two silent PCs (ref. here and here).

In this context, I am also interested in how frequently (and how precisely) the multiple ASIO routing would be "reset" while listening/playing a whole ripped CD album consists of e.g. 20 tracks.

I respect the multiple DAC shenanigans, but respectfully, if one wants a ton of D/A channels in perfect sync, it's much more logical to just buy studio-oriented reference converters like those from Merging Technologies. Their two main models, Hapi and Horus, with DA8P expansion card modules, give you respectively 16 and 48 channels of very high-performance D/A conversion (THD+N -116 dB, 125 dB DR), and since you can just connect as many of the base units with AES67 as you like, the number of perfectly synced possible channels is effectively infinite. Any input (by block of 8 channels per module and 2 channels for headphones) can be routed to any number of outputs as required at the same time.

Quite costly endavour, but in my opinion, it's the definitive hardware solution if one wants to do something crazy, like, for example, a 5.X multichannel audio setup with all multi-way active DIY speakers.

 

[k900733]

Are orders currently open ? Trying to get one, but the pay icon wiggles when I try to complete it.

I made an order on Nov 1st and it was shipped to USA on Nov 7th

 

[Tachyon88]

I made an order on Nov 1st and it was shipped to USA on Nov 7th

I actually got mine the other day ! Thanks for your concern !

 

[Jungstar]

None of those is our current or upcoming product. The first and third one are a custom builds we made last year, the second one is the DAC8 DSP which was discontinued.

Can you share the inside of your current products?