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Review and Measurements of NuForce STA-200 Power Amp

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amirm

amirm

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Now that we hvae seen that the JOB circuit performs badly in an inexpensive implementation, I would be very curious to see how it performs in the more expensive JOB and Goldmund implementations.

More generally, I wish it were possible to measure more high-end electronics here: both the mainstream stuff (Accuphase, Audio Research, Krell, Linn, McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Naim, Pass) and the non-mainstream stuff (CH Precision, Dartzeel, FM Acoustics, Goldmund, Nagra, Spectral, Technical Brain). Measurement of such gear could disconfirm that there is anything magical about it or instead indicate that there may be excellent engineering in some high-priced products.

Of course, the four barriers to measurement of such gear by Amir are (i) cost, (ii) weight, (iii) rarity, and (iv) the likely unwillingness of purchasers of that kind of gear to lend it to him for "objectivist" testing.
I think this is a problem that will sort itself out with time. I already see a change in the industry's need and willingness to have their products measured. It is a tiny change in the grand scheme of things but the trend is definite. What will help is members/visitors asking about us measuring the gear when they visit dealers or audio shows. Even if they say no, just getting the visibility of this work and importance of measurement will help in the long term. Dropping them a note at their website would help too.

I also have some access to the gear you mention. I have Mark Levinson amplifiers for example. Unfortunately they weigh 120+ pounds so at this moment I am not inclined to tackle them. :)

"Good news" is that there are a lot of high-end brands that live on excellence in engineering. So I would think that branch would want to have their gear measured.
 
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However, and ultimately, the biggest role is played by the gear built in power supplies : do they have enough low inductance energy storage and enough fast response times to provide current to the electronics ? If the answer is yes, very minor advantages will be noticed, if any, by replacing the standard $2 / tons FOB Shenzhen black cords that are supplied with the gears with esoteric or DIY power cords.
One thing that helps a lot here is the efficiency of class D amplification. You have 30% or so more power on tap rather than having it go to heat.
 

GanAinm

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Well maybe, at the possible expense of switching noise. And noise is exactly what you don't like about the Nuforce? Does the rail tracking technology of the Goldmund/Nuforce share anything with Class D topology? Part of why I was hoping to see a schematic...
 

Frank Dernie

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Well maybe, at the possible expense of switching noise. And noise is exactly what you don't like about the Nuforce? Does the rail tracking technology of the Goldmund/Nuforce share anything with Class D topology? Part of why I was hoping to see a schematic...
I don't know if it makes much difference but the Job amp is in a larger case so there is much more space between board wiring and transformer. The Job circuit board also has 8 what look like voltage regulators and quite a few other items which I don't see on the Nuforce. The Goldmund version has a much bigger power supply with 2 transformers and whilst the pcb looks identical to the Job (the Nuforce looks similar but is a different layout and missing several components) the case and its internal layout are different.
It would be reasonable to expect the Job to be better than the Nuforce and the Goldmund hold up better than the Job at high continuous power perhaps. It would certainly be interesting to have a comparison between the Job and the Nuforce.
 

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Agree. It woud be interesting to find any amp in rational price range that measured much lower distortion products, with same measurement eqipment. One might argue that if the measured noise is well below audibility maybe tne extended bandwith IS a plus given it sounds good? All engineering is trade off's. Not pontificating, just wondering...
 

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Frank Dernie

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All engineering is trade off's.
This is very true but clever engineering is all about producing the performance without wasting money. My old friend and mentor, Keith Duckworth, taught that good engineering was about understanding tolerances, and never making them tighter than necessary. "an engineer is a bloke who can make something for 5 bob which any damned fool could do for 5 quid". For the non-English that is a x20 difference :)
I remember us getting a young and keen engineer who was given the job of detailing the gearbox from the designer's schemes. The parts he drew were impossibly expensive to make since he was not what I would call a good engineer and set the machining tolerances way, way higher than they needed to be. In the end the drawings had to be completely re-dimensioned by somebody with a bit of real engineering knowledge.
Making something better than it needs to be to completely fulfil its function is wasteful.
 

JJB70

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Unfortunately a combination of political rhetoric and corporate marketing have resulted in the word "compromise" now being a pejorative one, which is unfortunate as any product is essentially just a collection of compromises and designing a product to deliver an optimum set of such compromises to maximise performance, value, longevity, efficiency, size etc take a lot of skill to do well.
 

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Thomas savage

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This is very true but clever engineering is all about producing the performance without wasting money. My old friend and mentor, Keith Duckworth, taught that good engineering was about understanding tolerances, and never making them tighter than necessary. "an engineer is a bloke who can make something for 5 bob which any damned fool could do for 5 quid". For the non-English that is a x20 difference :)
I remember us getting a young and keen engineer who was given the job of detailing the gearbox from the designer's schemes. The parts he drew were impossibly expensive to make since he was not what I would call a good engineer and set the machining tolerances way, way higher than they needed to be. In the end the drawings had to be completely re-dimensioned by somebody with a bit of real engineering knowledge.
Making something better than it needs to be to completely fulfil its function is wasteful.
....And that guy went on to be a high end audio designer guru .....

Honestly what you’ve written here sums up what happened in hi-end audio over the last 20 years ( or slightly more). Bunch of over engineered stuff that’s totally lost sight of its usage and is just a vehicle for someone’s ego both in the design and in the purchase.
 

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One thing that helps a lot here is the efficiency of class D amplification. You have 30% or so more power on tap rather than having it go to heat.[/QUOTE

Or the power supplies are de-rated accordingly, saving cost.
 

Soniclife

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Blumlein 88

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Or move the AP to the mountain? Maybe a good use for the older AP, mobile test lab.

I like the sentiment. But shipping the older AP is not going to be an inexpensive endeavor.

Now maybe think of shrinking the mountain. Maybe shipping the RME ad/da unit along with some simple software is a good idea. Need a box for hooking to power amps or even better hooking to power amps with speakers attached.
 

Soniclife

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I like the sentiment. But shipping the older AP is not going to be an inexpensive endeavor.
I was suggesting Amir travels about with the old one as convenient, rather than disassemble his new one from it's test bench. So he could take it to the ML amps, and also drive it to pre arranged houses as convenient. Does start to put images of his RV being more breaking bad than recreational into my head.
 

Blumlein 88

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This is very true but clever engineering is all about producing the performance without wasting money. My old friend and mentor, Keith Duckworth, taught that good engineering was about understanding tolerances, and never making them tighter than necessary. "an engineer is a bloke who can make something for 5 bob which any damned fool could do for 5 quid". For the non-English that is a x20 difference :)
I remember us getting a young and keen engineer who was given the job of detailing the gearbox from the designer's schemes. The parts he drew were impossibly expensive to make since he was not what I would call a good engineer and set the machining tolerances way, way higher than they needed to be. In the end the drawings had to be completely re-dimensioned by somebody with a bit of real engineering knowledge.
Making something better than it needs to be to completely fulfil its function is wasteful.

Not quite the same, but I was in engineering school when the first hand held scientific calculators were finally being allowed in classes. There was even a two week course for incoming freshman year after I was a freshman. It was how to use a TI30 or HP calculator for engineers. I'd previously only used slide rules which kept excessive decimal places under some control. I never cared for the RPN entry of an HP, and I couldn't afford one. The TI30 I could afford. In my classes you usually had some notes from the prof if not a lost point for writing down more than 3 decimal places. Excessive precision or unrealistic precision.


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dwkdnvr

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Agree. It woud be interesting to find any amp in rational price range that measured much lower distortion products, with same measurement eqipment. One might argue that if the measured noise is well below audibility maybe tne extended bandwith IS a plus given it sounds good? All engineering is trade off's. Not pontificating, just wondering...

I posted a couple of these in another thread, but there are definitely amps in a similar price tier to the STA-200 that exhibit substantially cleaner measured performance.

Cambridge 651W. Originally $1k, appears to still be available for $700 in a couple places. It's a Douglas Self 'blameless' design from what I understand, so it shouldn't be a surprise that it measures well. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...xpensive-Cambridge-Audio-651W-Power-Amplifier

The Neurochrome Modulus amps. Maybe it's not fair to include these, but it does show what can be done on a relative budget if you prioritize measured performance. Even using the fully-assembled modules, you can build a low power 40/65W version for ~700 and a high power (220/300W) for ~1300 or so. Extremely good measured performance. Higher power modulus-686: https://www.neurochrome.com/modulus-686/ . Lower power Modulus 86: https://www.neurochrome.com/modulus-86/


Schitt Vidar. Based on the measured performance of their DACs, Schitt certainly doesn't seem to be a slave to 'good numbers', but the Vidar doesn't do too badly - it's probably the most directly comparable of these to the NuForce. - the FFT plot shows lots of low-frequency/power supply artifacts, and 2nd/3rd HD products are much higher than the other 2, but if I'm reading it right are still 20dB better than the NuForce. Potentially significantly, the Vidar HD products above 4th order seem to be completely absent, whereas with the NuForce there are clear HD products up to very high order. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43904-Some-new-Schitt-in-power-amplifiers-the-Vidar

IMHO what concerns me about the STA-200 measurement aren't the actual THD+N numbers but instead the nature of the artifacts - lots of low-frequency hash, and rather high HD extending way out. It's entirely possible that these aren't directly audible by themselves, but with that much non-linearity present you have to think it's likely to show up somehow. I would actually accept the idea that a higher broad-based noise floor might well mask 'other problems' similar to how dither mitigates quantization artifacts, but it's harder to see how clear non-linearities might do the same.

I do think the question of amplifier audibility is a very interesting one though. I definitely agree that many specific attributes measured here probably have very low or zero impact on audibility until they reach a fairly high level (e.g. low-order HD which dominates THD, noise which is the other major part of THD+N) But OTOH amps CAN sound different, and IME they do so in relatively intangible ways that don't clearly map to conventional measurement metrics. i.e. for me it frequently tends to be perceived spatial presentation and 'body' which are frustratingly subjective in nature and probably relate more to channel matching than to any type of distortion product.

Still, I'm left feeling that since it seems to be relatively straightforward to make a good-measuring amp (or at least one that measures much better than the NuForce), shouldn't that be the minimum starting point? Even if there are other aspects that influence the subjective perception, it seems highly unlikely that bad measurements of this sort could actually be a good thing. But, I could easily be wrong, which is why I am rather interested in seeing more measurements and discussion around how they might impact audibility.
 

Sal1950

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5 bob which any damned fool could do for 5 quid". For the non-English that is a x20 difference
You folk have so many different names for your denominations that no one in the free world understands what your talking about. o_O:D
 

Frank Dernie

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You folk have so many different names for your denominations that no one in the free world understands what your talking about. o_O:D
Penny, nickel, dime, quarter, buck? :)
a bob was a shilling, which was discontinued in 1971, along with florins and half-crowns, but old blokes like me know what it is. A quid is £ sterling and has been in use for a long time and still is.
 

GanAinm

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dwk: thanks much for your detailed info. A practicing PhD EE friend (I am an EE degreed hobbiest and Ham, making my daily bread in the medical world) had similar concerns re the distortion products. If I get a chance to put the Nuforce and some other stuff on high end measurement equipment I will certainly post here, meanwhile thanks to Amirm. I agree completely with amp sounds being a bit mysterious but also sharing an appreciation for solid engineering, which can mean different things to different people.
 
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