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Review and Measurements of NuForce DAC80

pozz

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Took the words out of my head, exactly. If the goal is to measure to ensure transparency, congrats you then know what is (or isn't) transparent. How about every other sonic parameters that we consider when purchasing audio products like dynamics, warmth, bass output, spacial cues, sound stage width / depth, etc. Show me how you measure and capture these attributes in a chart or graph? Answer: you can't, measurements are only a piece of the puzzle.
Actually you can with subjective models but correlating them to measured results is very computationally intensive and involves defining many boundary conditions. You'd have to create a mathematical model of the ear (this not trivial and involves calculation of ERBs, i.e., the sensitivity of the ear to a range of different stimuli across the frequency range), the whole head and room, which would be more or less involved depending if you assume that the electronics are supporting speakers or headphones, where then you would have to account for their characteristics as well. On top of that you'd have to model the entire playback chain and its acoustic output. This is if you want to be accurate.

I'm working right now to figure out how we can do this more simply. This is on the basis of models and measured data, not listening tests. You're welcome to help.

Amir's measurements characterize the quality of the electronics and their action on a given, known signal. If you find the measurements irrelevant and the conclusions flawed, that's a general viewpoint and has little to do with the specific component he reviewed. Instead, start a new discussion in the general forum. I'm sure it will be interesting.
 

pozz

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You know what, I'll start one myself. The point won't be to prove anyone wrong, I'll just try to characterize the subjective viewpoint as honestly and with as much detail as possible.
 

sbo6

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Actually you can with subjective models but correlating them to measured results is very computationally intensive and involves defining many boundary conditions. You'd have to create a mathematical model of the ear (this not trivial and involves calculation of ERBs, i.e., the sensitivity of the ear to a range of different stimuli across the frequency range), the whole head and room, which would be more or less involved depending if you assume that the electronics are supporting speakers or headphones, where then you would have to account for their characteristics as well. On top of that you'd have to model the entire playback chain and its acoustic output. This is if you want to be accurate.

I'm working right now to figure out how we can do this more simply. This is on the basis of models and measured data, not listening tests. You're welcome to help.

As I'm sure you realize the setup, characterization and analysis to create such a model would be far from trivial and I'd wager near impossible. I also see no way it can be achieved without listening tests to correlate and verify (as best as possible human to human) to formulate a model. Good luck, I look forward to your reading of your efforts and results.

Amir's measurements characterize the quality of the electronics and their action on a given, known signal. If you find the measurements irrelevant and the conclusions flawed, that's a general viewpoint and has little to do with the specific component he reviewed. Instead, start a new discussion in the general forum. I'm sure it will be interesting.

Amir's measurements capture the results of known electrical tests and measurements. This may be a component of "quality" but certainly not the complete picture. Being human input, specifically audio, the quality aspect is somewhat subjective. The data is interesting and good information (parsing out the subjective and most commonly glass half empty comments which in and of themselves drive subjective opinions) but far from the whole enchilada. It's analogous to making a purchase decision of a performance car based solely on specs without ever seeing, sitting in and driving the car.
 

pozz

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Amir's measurements capture the results of known electrical tests and measurements. This may be a component of "quality" but certainly not the complete picture. Being human input, specifically audio, the quality aspect is somewhat subjective. The data is interesting and good information (parsing out the subjective and most commonly glass half empty comments which in and of themselves drive subjective opinions) but far from the whole enchilada. It's analogous to making a purchase decision of a performance car based solely on specs without ever seeing, sitting in and driving the car.
I currently use an Eizo CG2420. It's a professional monitor whose listed specs are more or less sufficient to describe how it operates—though not how I will perceive it's operation. For audio gear, with Amir's measurements, you get (very comprehensively) the first, but not the second. For the second to have any meaning, there are psychoacoustic texts and other research which inform the prevailing opinion that the audible difference between most components is trivial.

FYI, the CG2420 comes with built-in measurement hardware which recalibrates the monitor every 200 hours to ensure it's up to spec. Takes about 20 minutes.

Again, this topic is better discussed elsewhere than in this thread.
 

Jimster480

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As I'm sure you realize the setup, characterization and analysis to create such a model would be far from trivial and I'd wager near impossible. I also see no way it can be achieved without listening tests to correlate and verify (as best as possible human to human) to formulate a model. Good luck, I look forward to your reading of your efforts and results.



Amir's measurements capture the results of known electrical tests and measurements. This may be a component of "quality" but certainly not the complete picture. Being human input, specifically audio, the quality aspect is somewhat subjective. The data is interesting and good information (parsing out the subjective and most commonly glass half empty comments which in and of themselves drive subjective opinions) but far from the whole enchilada. It's analogous to making a purchase decision of a performance car based solely on specs without ever seeing, sitting in and driving the car.
Part of the problem of what you are claiming is that the measurements are based on signal quality. Meaning that the "quality" is still an objective measurement.
Additionally its possible to see if gear is "bright" or "warm" or "has a wide soundstage" simply by looking at the measurements.

The rolloff at certain frequencies can create the presence of soundstage for different kinds of music. And a boost or roll off of highs or lows will make you perceive gear as bright or warm.
"Dynamics" are usually due to music resolution; DAC's have have scored better in linearity typically have better depth and better detail. "Dynamics" are also due to dynamic range while actual music is being played.
Amir keeps developing new tests to show how products perform while playing simultaneous tones; which really do give readers a good look into how a product does while playing music or under load (for amps).

So to claim that measurements don't necessarily mean anything is just lunacy and its more head-fi follower logic. The brands over there (especially the really expensive "top tier" ones selling scam-level performance products) want to brainwash readers into only listening to what them and their associates say. Therefore "reviewers" (who are typically paid to give their recommendation) can gloat about "how great" a product is or "how it has the best soundstage ever" and everyone will run out to purchase some poorly engineered pile of crap that these guys are making HUGE PROFIT per unit on.

Just think about that for a moment. This is an objective forum that isn't making money on reviews and is run by a guy spending his own money (and some supporter funds) purchasing gear to review from mfg's who refuse to provide samples or try to pretend like we don't exist.
Yet you want to claim that this forum doesn't give users and idea of real performance? Please think about who stands to benefit from giving you the "right" information.
 
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sbo6

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Part of the problem of what you are claiming is that the measurements are based on signal quality. Meaning that the "quality" is still an objective measurement.
Additionally its possible to see if gear is "bright" or "warm" or "has a wide soundstage" simply by looking at the measurements.

The rolloff at certain frequencies can create the presence of soundstage for different kinds of music. And a boost or roll off of highs or lows will make you perceive gear as bright or warm.
"Dynamics" are usually due to music resolution; DAC's have have scored better in linearity typically have better depth and better detail. "Dynamics" are also due to dynamic range while actual music is being played.
Amir keeps developing new tests to show how products perform while playing simultaneous tones; which really do give readers a good look into how a product does while playing music or under load (for amps).

So to claim that measurements don't necessarily mean anything is just lunacy and its more head-fi follower logic. The brands over there (especially the really expensive "top tier" ones selling scam-level performance products) want to brainwash readers into only listening to what them and their associates say. Therefore "reviewers" (who are typically paid to give their recommendation) can gloat about "how great" a product is or "how it has the best soundstage ever" and everyone will run out to purchase some poorly engineered pile of crap that these guys are making HUGE PROFIT per unit on.

Just think about that for a moment. This is an objective forum that isn't making money on reviews and is run by a guy spending his own money (and some supporter funds) purchasing gear to review from mfg's who refuse to provide samples or try to pretend like we don't exist.
Yet you want to claim that this forum doesn't give users and idea of real performance? Please think about who stands to benefit from giving you the "right" information.

Who claimed measurements don't necessarily mean anything? For an objective forum you have a tendency to fill to fit your narrative. Also, I'd be curious to read more details about how soundstage can be measured and predicted since IME it's not one component that owns this capability, it's the system, speakers, speaker placement, room, treatment, listening spot placement, etc.
 

Jimster480

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Who claimed measurements don't necessarily mean anything? For an objective forum you have a tendency to fill to fit your narrative. Also, I'd be curious to read more details about how soundstage can be measured and predicted since IME it's not one component that owns this capability, it's the system, speakers, speaker placement, room, treatment, listening spot placement, etc.
To clarify my comments on soundstage; I was referring to the use of headphones. Not speaker systems as those have so many factors and most speaker systems have atrocious SINAD ratings anyway (atleast based on the information put forth so far on this forum)...
 

El_Konrado

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I did not log in for quite some time and now I am kinda shocked how much input my comparison of NuForce UDH-100 vs Topping D30 created here. Just to clarify it has nothing to with an expectation bias etc., I did blind tests myself as well as my other half but trust me guys, the difference between these two units isnt one of them were you have to keep switching every 5 seconds trying to find differences. It is night and day, as you can see its June 2020 and I am still using NuForce UDH-100 as my main DAC as it is simply superb. I am using it with some gear waaaay more expensive than this DAC itself. If anyone will have an opportunity to get one second hand for cheap d yourself a favour and get one. In my 20+ years of experience I had so many expensive units, one of the more expensive ones was Theta Pro Prime back in the days with Accuphase amp. I am not a kid who cannot tell the difference between how two units sounds. Tests are being done with music I have been listening for 20+ years, I know everly smallest nuance, every smallest bit and when I say presentation on NuForce UDH-100 is exceptional and breath taking considering its price than it really is.

I understand Amir has tested DAC-80 which is a very similar unit and not exactly the same thing, but I cannot believe the difference in sound quality between the both is so big. It could be a lot to do with pathetic drivers from NuForce engineers as finding proper drivers for these units is such a pain in the arse. If anyone is having problems with NuFOrce DACs I recommend to use Windows 10 as it has a driver already built-in and its better than any other drivers available on the web, it is much newer driver too.

So just like I already said 2 years ago, when it comes to DACs, music in general, measurements are not telling you the whole story otherwise NAD C375 BEE would be one of the best amps on the planet as it has fantastic numbers on paper.

There are some very old CD players which sound sensational too, I bet if you could measure them, the results would be really pathetic.
Again, you want the best audio setup, one you really love and enjoy to listen to, try many units, those which measure best, those which measure average and bad as well, learn the differences, see if you hear any, maybe you are one of those lucky people who cannot tell the difference, make sure your other gear is good enough to pick up the differences but enjoy the music, the rright and best DAC is the one which make you smile when you hear your favourite songs, not the one which is on top of some measurements list etc.

Stay safe guys
 

simurg

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I happened to have this DAC and I had been using it for several years now. I actually used it to drive my headphones without an amp. I found it was as better option over the standard sound jack on my computer.


A few comments in regards to the review:

- Noise at start up is by design and it is captured in the documentation. I don't know why it happens but it lasts a few seconds when you turned on the unit.

- the product web page says: Output voltage 0dB, 1kHz: RCA 4.0Vrms

It looks like by design the output voltage is 4V. I have no idea what I am talking about somewhere I read that higher voltage on the output is key to keep the noise ratio low. I am not sure if they are somehow related or this product is misdesigned with 4Vrms on RCA.
 

Barry_Sound

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I did not log in for quite some time and now I am kinda shocked how much input my comparison of NuForce UDH-100 vs Topping D30 created here. Just to clarify it has nothing to with an expectation bias etc., I did blind tests myself as well as my other half but trust me guys, the difference between these two units isnt one of them were you have to keep switching every 5 seconds trying to find differences. It is night and day, as you can see its June 2020 and I am still using NuForce UDH-100 as my main DAC as it is simply superb. I am using it with some gear waaaay more expensive than this DAC itself. If anyone will have an opportunity to get one second hand for cheap d yourself a favour and get one. In my 20+ years of experience I had so many expensive units, one of the more expensive ones was Theta Pro Prime back in the days with Accuphase amp. I am not a kid who cannot tell the difference between how two units sounds. Tests are being done with music I have been listening for 20+ years, I know everly smallest nuance, every smallest bit and when I say presentation on NuForce UDH-100 is exceptional and breath taking considering its price than it really is.

I understand Amir has tested DAC-80 which is a very similar unit and not exactly the same thing, but I cannot believe the difference in sound quality between the both is so big. It could be a lot to do with pathetic drivers from NuForce engineers as finding proper drivers for these units is such a pain in the arse. If anyone is having problems with NuFOrce DACs I recommend to use Windows 10 as it has a driver already built-in and its better than any other drivers available on the web, it is much newer driver too.

So just like I already said 2 years ago, when it comes to DACs, music in general, measurements are not telling you the whole story otherwise NAD C375 BEE would be one of the best amps on the planet as it has fantastic numbers on paper.

There are some very old CD players which sound sensational too, I bet if you could measure them, the results would be really pathetic.
Again, you want the best audio setup, one you really love and enjoy to listen to, try many units, those which measure best, those which measure average and bad as well, learn the differences, see if you hear any, maybe you are one of those lucky people who cannot tell the difference, make sure your other gear is good enough to pick up the differences but enjoy the music, the rright and best DAC is the one which make you smile when you hear your favourite songs, not the one which is on top of some measurements list etc.

Stay safe guys
I got to say measurements I see here are good for entertainment but I have no idea how a single graph on an analyzer could reflect the real world listening experience, unless something is clearly broken. I know the difference a power supply can make, experienced with my V90 DAC and backed up by family members who are zero biased because they couldnt care less.

That said, of course psychoacoustics are a thing to consider. This is true for esoterics same as the measurement fanatics.

I have a used UDH-100 coming… will report back.
 

Jimster480

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I got to say measurements I see here are good for entertainment but I have no idea how a single graph on an analyzer could reflect the real world listening experience, unless something is clearly broken. I know the difference a power supply can make, experienced with my V90 DAC and backed up by family members who are zero biased because they couldnt care less.

That said, of course psychoacoustics are a thing to consider. This is true for esoterics same as the measurement fanatics.

I have a used UDH-100 coming… will report back.
It's not a single graph on a paper. If you understand anything about audio science you can understand how the graphs show how something sounds. It is actually very simple if you can learn about how it actually works.
I have spent countless hours doing side by side comparisons versus multiple DACs and measurements do matter. Once sinad gets over 105 it is near impossible if not impossible to tell the differences. Usually differences come from filter selection, whether user selectable or forced. Other differences (like one dac being cleaner than another) are so tiny they are only reflected in well recorded tracks with high dynamic range at a moment in the track of a high frequency sound being played usually in combination with other sounds.

The more sounds played at once the more distortion will multiply as it is a time domain thing. So having lower distortion to start off with produces a better and cleaner sound.
So it's not "one chart" but multiple charts.

I suggest since you signed up on this website to educate yourself on how the components you pay for actually work and what audio science even is. It makes little sense to sign up and make a pointless post like the one you made, doubting the whole website because you think differently.
 

Barry_Sound

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Other differences (like one dac being cleaner than another) are so tiny they are only reflected in well recorded tracks with high dynamic range at a moment in the track of a high frequency sound being played usually in combination with other sounds.

Where is the graph to back this up?

I suggest since you signed up on this website to educate yourself on how the components you pay for actually work and what audio science even is. It makes little sense to sign up and make a pointless post like the one you made, doubting the whole website because you think differently.

For a self-declared scientist you are jumping to conclusions very quickly. Please quote me where I "doubt the whole website because I think differently".

And why even bother replying to a "pointless" post? Arent you multiplying pointlessness here? Asking as a scientist.
 

Jimster480

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Where is the graph to back this up?



For a self-declared scientist you are jumping to conclusions very quickly. Please quote me where I "doubt the whole website because I think differently".

And why even bother replying to a "pointless" post? Arent you multiplying pointlessness here? Asking as a scientist.
The graphs come in the form of the sinad dashboard, linearity test, Multi tone and IMD charts.
They convey what I explained.

Saying "graphs are good for entertainment" shows that you doubt the whole website.
 
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