Review and Measurements of New Topping D50s DAC

[303]

honestly upsampling 48>96>768 seems pretty pointless/silly to me

Don't we all engage in pointless activities in our lives?

The point of using such a high samplerate is bypassing the DAC's internal filtering as much as possible (which would use a higher roll-off frequency, less steep slope, decreased stopband rejection at it's highest sample rate), thus allowing my own filters to pass with the least possible intervention.

About the multi-stage upsampling I'm using... first of all, my ears like the results much better than singe stage upsamling. That part isn't scientific at all
But there's also some reasoning behind it.
Especially at 44.1kHz and 48kHz the necessary filter causes a devilish dilemma: better transients? Then thou shall suffer from more pre/post echo!
Better stopband rejection: say goodbye to bandwidth and transients!
For 44.1->48 I'm using the intermediate filter, and have the settings adjusted to have less stopband rejection and slightly better bandwidth and transient response.
The next step (48->96) uses linear filter and slightly less steep filtering. This allows the transients of the first step to get through (as they're mostly outside the current filter band), but at the same time it attenuates some of the stopband imaging leftovers from the first step without causing additional phase issues.
The last step is mainly to bypass the DAC's internal filtering as much as possible.

I could be wrong with my reasoning, but I really like the end result (I'm willing to share my settings if it doesn't bring the disccusion too much off-topic)

 

[Veri]

I could be wrong with my reasoning, but I really like the end result (I'm willing to share my settings if it doesn't bring the disccusion too much off-topic)

I'd quite like you to do so, if not here another thread would be fine

 

[303]

I'd quite like you to do so, if not here another thread would be fine

Will do so this evening in my timezone (currently not at home)

 

[303]

I'd quite like you to do so, if not here another thread would be fine

After some more listening I'm convinced that using external upsampling beats the D50s filters, sound-wise.

I better open a seperate thread for it, because there's some interesting points of discussion on multistage upsampling I think, but I don't want to clutter the current thread.

Will do so as soon as I find some spare time (probably in my holiday next week).

If you feel like experimenting already anyway (assuming a 44.1kHz source, SSRC algorithm):

Set the D50s in filter mode 2 (least intervention below the cutoff), and be sure to have the output to the driver at 32 bit.
first instance of Resampler-V 44.1->48kHz, intermediate phase (to balance between excessive pre- and post-ringing and phase distortion), passband around 90% (setting it too high will let possible artifacts in the original recording just below the Nyquist-frequency through, better get rid of them), allow a little bit of aliasing (stopband between 112-118%) and stopband attenuation not too low, around -118dB.

Second instance of Resampler-V will be filtering some of the stopband leftovers without disrupting transients too much. 48->88.2kHz. I use linear phase, 77,9%, 107.1%, -146dB but you can play with settings until it sounds best.

Third instance: 88.1-768kHz (linear phase). This step will disable as much as possible of the Topping's internal filter. You can set the graph to a horizontal line (which I assume will let the previous upsampling step through with minimal filtering), but playing with the settings in this step unexpectedly (because all filtering should be outside of the hearing range) seems to have some influence on the "darkness" of the background. Set this to taste. Changes are subtile but audible.

Be aware that stacking filters creates some full range attenuation compared to the build-in filter, so be sure to adjust volume accordingly when comparing upsampling with the native D50s filter.

I'm not sure what's exactly happening, but I like the results! Maybe the attenuation of of the stopband becomes less artificially correlated to audio input by the more complex cummulative filtering effect?.... I found the sound to be more fluid, and listening near a wall having less negative impact on the stereo image. Audiofool-magic-cable-terminology, I know but in this case the results are repeatable and can be tried by anyone, at exactly zero impact on your budget.

I know it's a matter of personal taste, but in my ears it greatly improves the musical experience of the D50s.

More in a seperate topic!

EDIT: I do not want to suggest any part of my reasoning is correct! Just trying to connect some dots using my limited knowledge as a self-taught audioholic, and got excited by the sonic result! I'm pretty sure the multi-stage filtering can much be improved

 

[Gradius]

@303

What are you doing is no good, and not practical at all.

If a firmware were around, I could look into and perhaps hack it. But there aren't any for D50s.

I just sent an e-mail to support to provide such SUPER simple posibility (to disable the filters).

I asked them to create a new mode (MODE 8 for example), where ALL the filters are just disabled.

Their e-mail: [email protected]

 

[Gradius]

Got answers from Support.

They told me to use MODE 3 (minimum phase fast roll-off filter).

Is the most neutral mode posible.

Perhaps the filters are necessary to avoid the so called "IMD ESS hum".

 

[303]

@303
What are you doing is no good, and not practical at all.

I agree it's far from being practical, but I why is it no good? It's a matter of personal taste what sounds better to ones ears (though it's possible my taste is no good, which wouldn't surprise me)

I just sent an e-mail to support to provide such SUPER simple posibility (to disable the filters).

That's actually a really great idea! I will do so. Also nice to see Topping customer support being so responsive

They told me to use MODE 3 (minimum phase fast roll-off filter).
Is the most neutral mode posible.

That's interesting, I would expect a linear phase filter to be more neutral when upsampling.

Thanks for your input!

 

[PT1]

Thank you for a wonderful review on the D50s!
I am new here and learning but my application is unique for this forum, being for a sound quality car application. Currently running the D10 to bypass the OEM head unit going digital from my iPhone, Apple car adapter, to D10 digital output (coaxial) to my DSP and to my amps/speaker. The D10 sounded much better but thin and somewhat harsh on top making long listening fatigue. Purchased the D50s based on this wonderful review BUT to only find out there is NO digital output for coaxial... would hate to use a analog to digital converter and lower the sample rate which is counter productive. Is there any alternative to this? How do I get digital out? Can I somehow run the D10 after the D50s so I can have a coaxial output? Would this be over processed?

 

[Veri]

Thank you for a wonderful review on the D50s!
I am new here and learning but my application is unique for this forum, being for a sound quality car application. Currently running the D10 to bypass the OEM head unit going digital from my iPhone, Apple car adapter, to D10 digital output (coaxial) to my DSP and to my amps/speaker. The D10 sounded much better but thin and somewhat harsh on top making long listening fatigue. Purchased the D50s based on this wonderful review BUT to only find out there is NO digital output for coaxial... would hate to use a analog to digital converter and lower the sample rate which is counter productive. Is there any alternative to this? How do I get digital out? Can I somehow run the D10 after the D50s so I can have a coaxial output? Would this be over processed?

The D50 is an expensive DAC: digital to analog converter. If you want to stay in digital domain I'd return it immediately and recover your money, your use case does not seem to warrant a DAC..

 

[SeaNNyT]

I am having issues with my new setup (not blaming the DAC quite yet).

So I just recently received the D50s to pair with my Atom Amp. Before I was using the onboard to the Atom Amp. I also was using the APO EQ with Peace. After setting everything up and installing the drivers I have found that for whatever reason the EQ software responds completely different now. The Pre-amp slider on Peace will just keep going down until it reaches the lowest setting of -30db and the clipping warning still indicates. I have tried pre-amping through the DAC, lowering the volumes of the Amp, everthing to no avail. Using the Peace pre-amp slider doesn't actually change the volume anymore either. I can't figure out why it is doing this, and the only thing that has changed is the D50s.

Edit: I just realized I can't use any software to EQ this setup at all now. Foobar's built in EQ doesn't change teh sound at all for example. Am I missing some step to all of this?

 

[Celty]

I am having issues with my new setup (not blaming the DAC quite yet).

So I just recently received the D50s to pair with my Atom Amp. Before I was using the onboard to the Atom Amp. I also was using the APO EQ with Peace. After setting everything up and installing the drivers I have found that for whatever reason the EQ software responds completely different now. The Pre-amp slider on Peace will just keep going down until it reaches the lowest setting of -30db and the clipping warning still indicates. I have tried pre-amping through the DAC, lowering the volumes of the Amp, everthing to no avail. Using the Peace pre-amp slider doesn't actually change the volume anymore either. I can't figure out why it is doing this, and the only thing that has changed is the D50s.

Edit: I just realized I can't use any software to EQ this setup at all now. Foobar's built in EQ doesn't change teh sound at all for example. Am I missing some step to all of this?

You did not happen to update Peace did you? If so you need to re-install APO. Actually, I would try a re-install in any case, it cannot hurt.

 

[Zek]

How do I get digital out?

Digital out - from what?

 

[Hemi-Demon]

Thank you for a wonderful review on the D50s!
I am new here and learning but my application is unique for this forum, being for a sound quality car application. Currently running the D10 to bypass the OEM head unit going digital from my iPhone, Apple car adapter, to D10 digital output (coaxial) to my DSP and to my amps/speaker. The D10 sounded much better but thin and somewhat harsh on top making long listening fatigue. Purchased the D50s based on this wonderful review BUT to only find out there is NO digital output for coaxial... would hate to use a analog to digital converter and lower the sample rate which is counter productive. Is there any alternative to this? How do I get digital out? Can I somehow run the D10 after the D50s so I can have a coaxial output? Would this be over processed?

Your install is AMAZING! The pillar work with split mid and tweeter is phenomenal. May I ask how you are powering the D10 off a 12 V battery? Also what is a your music source a phone through Bluetooth, or do you have your phone wired to the analog input?

 

[ninetylol]

I am having issues with my new setup (not blaming the DAC quite yet).

So I just recently received the D50s to pair with my Atom Amp. Before I was using the onboard to the Atom Amp. I also was using the APO EQ with Peace. After setting everything up and installing the drivers I have found that for whatever reason the EQ software responds completely different now. The Pre-amp slider on Peace will just keep going down until it reaches the lowest setting of -30db and the clipping warning still indicates. I have tried pre-amping through the DAC, lowering the volumes of the Amp, everthing to no avail. Using the Peace pre-amp slider doesn't actually change the volume anymore either. I can't figure out why it is doing this, and the only thing that has changed is the D50s.

Edit: I just realized I can't use any software to EQ this setup at all now. Foobar's built in EQ doesn't change teh sound at all for example. Am I missing some step to all of this?

You need to reconfigure equalizer apo for the new output. As already said, better just make a clean New install.

 

[SeaNNyT]

You did not happen to update Peace did you? If so you need to re-install APO. Actually, I would try a re-install in any case, it cannot hurt.

Thanks guys, will try this when I get home. I actually almost did that but have other matters to attend to today and ran out of time.

 

[Gradius]

$185 again @ Drop:
https://drop.com/buy/topping-d50s-dac

Shipping by the end of january.

 

[PT1]

The D50 is an expensive DAC: digital to analog converter. If you want to stay in digital domain I'd return it immediately and recover your money, your use case does not seem to warrant a DAC..

Digital out - from what?

The D50s which I am understanding now that it’s not meant for my application unlike the D10 a pass through with a DAC with coax out. Bummed out and will return it.

 

[PT1]

Your install is AMAZING! The pillar work with split mid and tweeter is phenomenal. May I ask how you are powering the D10 off a 12 V battery? Also what is a your music source a phone through Bluetooth, or do you have your phone wired to the analog input?

Thank you. Something different I know for this forum. The D10 is USB powered which is connected to an Apple camera kit, connected to my phone as the source. The camera kit has a USB output and a lightning output that goes into the USB to the car to charge. The USB from camera kit goes input into the D10 and turns on when the phone is connected, and automatically shuts off when no signal. The D10 appears to be the only option with a coaxial (digital out) to my DSP in the trunk which is also a DAC. I was hoping the D50s would work but it doesn’t have a digital out, only input. I don’t think I can connect the D10 after the D50s because it’s analog out and D10 is USB input only. The D10 works perfectly and sounds much better bypassing then OEM head unit. The D10 just sounds thin and edgy and will have to tune the EQ on the DSP to get it right. Just wanted to see if there was an upgrade aspect to the D10 but it appears as the D10 is very unique being a digital to digital with a DAC.

 

[mykeldg]

Thank you. Something different I know for this forum. The D10 is USB powered which is connected to an Apple camera kit, connected to my phone as the source. The camera kit has a USB output and a lightning output that goes into the USB to the car to charge. The USB from camera kit goes input into the D10 and turns on when the phone is connected, and automatically shuts off when no signal. The D10 appears to be the only option with a coaxial (digital out) to my DSP in the trunk which is also a DAC. I was hoping the D50s would work but it doesn’t have a digital out, only input. I don’t think I can connect the D10 after the D50s because it’s analog out and D10 is USB input only. The D10 works perfectly and sounds much better bypassing then OEM head unit. The D10 just sounds thin and edgy and will have to tune the EQ on the DSP to get it right. Just wanted to see if there was an upgrade aspect to the D10 but it appears as the D10 is very unique being a digital to digital with a DAC.

If you're using the D10 as a digital pass though, I don't think it has anything to do with the sound quality since in that configuration, you are essentially still using the DAC built-in to the DSP that the d10 is feeding into. If you want to hear the sound from the D10 DAC, you will need to use the Analog outputs (RCA) into an amp.

 

[Zek]

Instead of D10 you can use USB to SPDIF converter.
https://www.google.com/search?q=usb...WQfFAKHQOQDTQQ_AUoAXoECAsQAw&biw=1348&bih=982