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Review and Measurements of New Topping D50s DAC
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I thought the point of ASR is to show that you really don’t need to spend crazy money to get reference grade equipment
There are many differences between them, beyond measuring well enough to be considered effectively transparent. The job of the DAC is not to somehow transform the waveform into something better than what the sound engineer signed off on. It is to render that waveform with as complete accuracy/transparency as possible. Doing otherwise means they are just seasoning to the designers personal taste.
Things like inputs, outputs, quality of headphone amp if there is one, balanced outs, overall build quality, sufficiency and quality of power supply, dsp capability, preamp features, etc.
There are very valid reasons to spend thousands on a DAC. Sound quality shouldn't be one of them, as that you can get on an apple dongle or a chromecast audio.
assuming all the DACs you're choosing are proven to be audibly transparent. but yes, among the well designed DACs, at that point the differentiating factor becomes features and other things like form factor, ergonomics, etc
Yeah i'd agree with that, actually. I probably just had inferior (i.e. less transparent DACs) in the past and now that I have seen a big jump from a non decent DAC to a decent one (D30), I thought upgrading it further would result in a similar jump in quality, which I think is the wrong way to view it.
Once you've gotten to orders of magnitude away from audibility thresholds, you are free to explore ways to spend your money where it might matter....like...speakers...room treatment, etc. People buy a kilobuck DAC and play it through crap speakers and think it will make things better. It won't.
You're well past the point of vanishing returns in terms of accuracy with your DAC. You picked a good unit to get started with. Now you can forget about what you're missing in terms of depth and soundstage and all the rest of it, and think about what the next weak link may be.
The factors affecting the sound quality of a DAC are many, only one of which is the DAC chip itself.
However there are DACs on the market costing much the same but using different chips.
For example, at exactly the same price to the Topping D50s, there is the SMSL M300 using the dual channel AKM AK4497 chip. For a "few dollars more" Pro-Ject offer another implementation of the same ESS 9038Q2M chip, found in the D50s, in the Pre Box S2 Digital. (This is not the top of the range PRO chip).
Topping have moved to using the AKM chip in the D70, but at almost double the cost of the SMSL.
Both chips are said to be musical, which is really the prime directive.
It would be helpful if a comparison of two or more of these DACs (SMSL, Topping, Pro-Ject) could be made to give a basis for judging which is more likely to provide the better sound quality and musicality within a system.
The market is crowded and in most circumstances impossible to listen to individual DACs before buying.
However there are DACs on the market costing much the same but using different chips.
For example, at exactly the same price to the Topping D50s, there is the SMSL M300 using the dual channel AKM AK4497 chip. For a "few dollars more" Pro-Ject offer another implementation of the same ESS 9038Q2M chip, found in the D50s, in the Pre Box S2 Digital. (This is not the top of the range PRO chip).
Topping have moved to using the AKM chip in the D70, but at almost double the cost of the SMSL.
Both chips are said to be musical, which is really the prime directive.
It would be helpful if a comparison of two or more of these DACs (SMSL, Topping, Pro-Ject) could be made to give a basis for judging which is more likely to provide the better sound quality and musicality within a system.
The market is crowded and in most circumstances impossible to listen to individual DACs before buying.
maxxevv
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I think the guys who say that different DACs sound different are not looking at the whole system.
i) Are the tests done blind ? As in double blind. You don't know what you're listening to, just that you are comparing 2 devices.
Volume outputs equalized.
ii) Do the 2 DACs have exactly the same support circuitry ?
iii) Are the output stage designs the same ?
iv) Are the power supplies used of equal output capacity ?
v) Were the 2 or more devices listened to in the same environment ? In the same background noise conditions ?
All these can affect the output sound of a DAC comparison. i) being the worst culprit. ii) and iii) slightly less but can make a sufficient difference.
I say this from having spent a multi hour session running back and forth between a few DAC's. But mainly between KTB connected to an Atom and a Anedio D2 playing back on a HD800. When you try listening the these 2 DACs directly, the output is obviously different. It takes just 5~20 seconds to pick it out. But when I plug the auxiliary out from the Anedio to the Atom and listen via that, the differences are drastically reduced. To the point that I'm not completely sure if I was hearing them or imagining them.
I would certainly like to say I hear it but the confidence level is pretty low in that account.
So, if you have the chance try something similar to the above, you'll probably see why its very hard to justify tremendous differences between well performing DACs. Subtle, possibly. Huge ? Obvious ? Would suggest you do a double / triple take.
The external factors outside of the DS chips have a tremendous impact on how it sounds. It isn't what most people think as being a case of the DAC chip's "signature" clear and cut. Not at all.
i) Are the tests done blind ? As in double blind. You don't know what you're listening to, just that you are comparing 2 devices.
Volume outputs equalized.
ii) Do the 2 DACs have exactly the same support circuitry ?
iii) Are the output stage designs the same ?
iv) Are the power supplies used of equal output capacity ?
v) Were the 2 or more devices listened to in the same environment ? In the same background noise conditions ?
All these can affect the output sound of a DAC comparison. i) being the worst culprit. ii) and iii) slightly less but can make a sufficient difference.
I say this from having spent a multi hour session running back and forth between a few DAC's. But mainly between KTB connected to an Atom and a Anedio D2 playing back on a HD800. When you try listening the these 2 DACs directly, the output is obviously different. It takes just 5~20 seconds to pick it out. But when I plug the auxiliary out from the Anedio to the Atom and listen via that, the differences are drastically reduced. To the point that I'm not completely sure if I was hearing them or imagining them.
I would certainly like to say I hear it but the confidence level is pretty low in that account.
So, if you have the chance try something similar to the above, you'll probably see why its very hard to justify tremendous differences between well performing DACs. Subtle, possibly. Huge ? Obvious ? Would suggest you do a double / triple take.
The external factors outside of the DS chips have a tremendous impact on how it sounds. It isn't what most people think as being a case of the DAC chip's "signature" clear and cut. Not at all.
For the avoidance of doubt the question is : would there be any noticeable difference, if any, by taking the Topping, Pro-Ject and SMSL DACs and connecting each one in the same system, one at a time, and playing the same music ? Would the measured data assist in making a selection ?
Agreed that the configuration of the circuitry around the DAC chip will be different in each implementation, the conversion circuitry may be different, and the accompanying filters will be different between the AKM and ESS chips (with or without the ESS "hump"). Links to the manufacturers' data are given below.
Schiit use Analog Devices chips in the multi-bit versions of its DACs, otherwise AKM chips, and the company agree that there is a noticeable difference in the sound quality. The advice is the multi-bit version is the way to go if the budget allows because of the "smoother sound". How the conversion is handled will influence the sound quality as will the input and output circuitry.
Based on the SINAD chart the multi-bit Modi performance is below that of the basic Modi, with both somewhat better than the more expensive Bitfrost, Jotenheim, and Yggdrasil. Difficult to know how to interpret this information.
The comparison between the Topping D50s and the SMSL M300 at the same price point but using different DAC chips would be a worthwhile exercise.
AKM 4497 datasheet ¦ https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4497EQ.pdf
ESS Sabre 9038 data ¦ http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en...ers/audiophile-dacs/sabre-pro-dacs/es9038pro/
Agreed that the configuration of the circuitry around the DAC chip will be different in each implementation, the conversion circuitry may be different, and the accompanying filters will be different between the AKM and ESS chips (with or without the ESS "hump"). Links to the manufacturers' data are given below.
Schiit use Analog Devices chips in the multi-bit versions of its DACs, otherwise AKM chips, and the company agree that there is a noticeable difference in the sound quality. The advice is the multi-bit version is the way to go if the budget allows because of the "smoother sound". How the conversion is handled will influence the sound quality as will the input and output circuitry.
Based on the SINAD chart the multi-bit Modi performance is below that of the basic Modi, with both somewhat better than the more expensive Bitfrost, Jotenheim, and Yggdrasil. Difficult to know how to interpret this information.
The comparison between the Topping D50s and the SMSL M300 at the same price point but using different DAC chips would be a worthwhile exercise.
AKM 4497 datasheet ¦ https://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4497EQ.pdf
ESS Sabre 9038 data ¦ http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en...ers/audiophile-dacs/sabre-pro-dacs/es9038pro/
yavormoskov
Active Member
Yes, it does support both.
Veri
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AKM or no shouldn't matter. If you have a premium performing DAC, differences should be very subtle to non-existent.
There's plenty of 'premium' AKM4497 DACs that are really crap
due to bad implementation and/or low-cost parts.This reply asks the same question written in a different way : "With the data available on the SINAD chart, how can this be used for comparing the sound quality of DACs when connected in a music system ?"
The SINAD data for the Schiit DACs is surprising, as surely more expensive DACs should provide better performance.
The design of the DAC chips (multi-bit,delta-sigma, DSP etc) will contribute to the listening experience in the same way as the quality of the circuitry around the chip itself.
No train crash, just a reasonable question to ask. Obviously a great hi-res photograph.
The cost of the D50s is a hike on the D50, so is this justified in the listening experience - the old hifi conundrum again !
Many thanks to Amir for the work in testing and making the results available.
I have AK4458VN on my Denon x4200 receiver. I should hope it's not crapAKM or no shouldn't matter. If you have a premium performing DAC, differences should be very subtle to non-existent.
There's plenty of 'premium' AKM4497 DACs that are really crap
So If this D50s is not big leap forward in terms of sound, what is?
maxxevv
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The MRSP of the D50S is exactly the same as the D50 at launch. The D50 prices you see now are discounted from its initial launch.
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