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Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

Theriverlethe

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Full amplitude content is quite common and has been since loudness wars started. It is routine to get content at 0 dB.

Of course. This ignores the point that most people are hitting 100dB+ SPL long before clipping. How or why NAD set up their DAC to clip their amp, I have no idea - definitely not trying to give their engineers a pass on this.
 
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MickeyBoy

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The T758 v3 just won an award as the "Best Premuim Home Theatre Receiver" for 2019-2020. This comes from EISA, Expert Imaging Sound Association. Link here: https://www.eisa.eu/awards/nad-t-758-v3/

I would feel really good about having bought this had I not read Amir's devastating review. The chances of NAD coming up with an improved module just shrank asymptotically.
 

GrimSurfer

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Yup. In a contest between profit potential and engineering excellence, profit wins 9 times out of 10.
 

Dj7675

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They are coming out with a new model but looks to be replacing the 777. https://nadelectronics.com/nad-previews-t-778-reference-avr/
It looks nice but unless someone bench tests it, I would not trust that it measures well. I thought that I had read somewhere that it was going to have the ncore amp modules in it but I need to see if I can find something that confirms that. If that were true, it would take care of the poor amp side of things...
 

GrimSurfer

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Reason enough to ignore everything that comes out of that association...

I think many of these associations have been so corrupted by corporate money that they can't tell the difference between good and bad any more. Like medicine and big pharma...
 

Theriverlethe

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The T758 v3 just won an award as the "Best Premuim Home Theatre Receiver" for 2019-2020. This comes from EISA, Expert Imaging Sound Association. Link here: https://www.eisa.eu/awards/nad-t-758-v3/

I would feel really good about having bought this had I not read Amir's devastating review. The chances of NAD coming up with an improved module just shrank asymptotically.

Threshold of audibility for a 3rd harmonic at 100dB+ is around -30dB (4x louder than the T758 produces). I really wouldn’t worry about it too much. Just enjoy the best room correction available in a receiver under $2000.
 
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Dj7675

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Threshold of audibility for a 3rd harmonic at 100dB+ is around -30dB (4x louder than the T758 produces). I really wouldn’t worry about it too much. Just enjoy the best room correction available in a receiver under $2000.
I am guessing you do not agree with with Amir's post on the previous page link that clearly showed to me at least why this is an issue. Can you explain why you do not agree with this? It made sense to me. I agree with his comment as well that it will likely sound bright and harsh when pushed. I am getting around to replacing it because of this.
 

Theriverlethe

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I am guessing you do not agree with with Amir's post on the previous page link that clearly showed to me at least why this is an issue. Can you explain why you do not agree with this? It made sense to me. I agree with his comment as well that it will likely sound bright and harsh when pushed. I am getting around to replacing it because of this.

This is partly my fault for going off on room noise when it’s barely relevant. Here is a more relevant figure regarding masking:

<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/figure...t-1200-Hz-The-level-of-masking_fig8_266136545"><img src="https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-centered-at-1200-Hz-The-level-of-masking.png" alt="Masking effect of a narrow band of noise centered at 1200 Hz. The level of masking noise is shown next to each masked threshold (adapted from Zwicker and Feldtkeller, 1967)."/></a>

I’d be way more concerned about the 5th and 7th harmonics, if you have a tone that puts them in the critical 1 - 3kHz range. However, the bandwidth of masking increases with lower frequencies, and it’s also unlikely that you’d have no other content in this region to mask spurious tones at 1/128 the amplitude of the signal.

Whoops, here’s an in-line copy of the figure:
07EC4E66-347F-4AF9-AF4B-C1A992EC0F9E.png

Also, I think people are getting tripped up on the fact that decibels are logarithmic. Every 10dB is twice the amplitude.
 
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audiophool

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I am guessing you do not agree with with Amir's post on the previous page link that clearly showed to me at least why this is an issue. Can you explain why you do not agree with this? It made sense to me. I agree with his comment as well that it will likely sound bright and harsh when pushed. I am getting around to replacing it because of this.

I have miniDSP SHD and NAD 758 V3. They sound identical with my Gelenec 8341's. I would recommend upgrading your room acoustics or speakers first. Those are by far the greatest sources of distortion in a system.
 

Dj7675

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I have miniDSP SHD and NAD 758 V3. They sound identical with my Gelenec 8341's. I would recommend upgrading your room acoustics or speakers first. Those are by far the greatest sources of distortion in a system.
It is funny you mention the minidsp shd... I use one in my main listening space with a McIntosh MC252, JBL 250TI Speakers with the B460 sub. This room is acoustically treated pretty well. I can turn the volume up at pretty insane levels when I want to and it really sounds great. In my theater room, it which is also acoustically treated, it sounds fine at low volumes to me. However, at at higher volumes during movie playback it just doesn't sound as good as I think it should and after a few minutes need to turn it down. I had the unit in our living room for a while and the volume levels in that room (untreated) were generally at -20 to -25 and thought it sounded fine in that environment as well (not a very quiet room either unlike the other 2 rooms). @audiophool , what volume level do you generally use in your system?
 

xhattan

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Lol. Told you guys. Yes, measurements are awful (still think the device tested was faulty), but SINAD is insignificant when DIRAC Live is considered in the equation.

Of course the NAD T758v3 is not only the best receiver of 2018 and 2019, but is the best receiver ever, in the 2K budget. This coming from someone that has owned almost all the top line or flagships from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo. Who cares for SINAD (unless you really have intentions of leaving your family and yourself deaf) when you have DIRAC correcting every imperfection. I actually watched several movies at 0 dB in the past days, and couldn´t perceive any distortion from my Kef LS50s and SVS sub. Same with 2 channel CDs (no vinyls). It was insanely loud, but sound was still clear and image and dynamics were splendid. This, for less than $1500 (or 1K refurbed).

And yes, Amir´s measurements are really helpful in determining the real specs of the equipment, but, in many cases, misleading. The Yamaha 1080 measured way better than the NAD, but no one, NO ONE, would ever choose the Yamaha over the T758v3 if comparing them side by side.
 

GrimSurfer

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Lol. Told you guys. Yes, measurements are awful (still think the device tested was faulty), but SINAD is insignificant when DIRAC Live is considered in the equation.

Please explain how DIRAC actually removes noise and distortion from the signal path. (It doesn't, BTW.)

is the best receiver ever, in the 2K budget.

...Amir´s measurements are really helpful in determining the real specs of the equipment, but, in many cases, misleading.

Whenever I see outrageous statements questioning the value of measurements that have been competently obtained, it is frequently followed by a rationalization of a low price point.

... NO ONE, would ever choose the Yamaha over the T758v3 if comparing them side by side.

n=1? :p
 
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xhattan

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Please explain how DIRAC actually removes noise and distortion from the signal path. (It doesn't, BTW.)





Whenever I see outrageous statements questioning the value of measurements that have been competently obtained, it is frequently followed by a rationalization of a low price point.



n=1? :p

1. Distortion will still be there. But I couldn´t hear any distortion at reference levels and doubt that anyone could if used with competent speakers, with or without DIRAC. My point is, that even with the awful distortion (audible only assuming that you come from a dead planet with a red sun), DIRAC will still ensure a very pleasurable listening experience, superior to any receiver at its price point, or even up to the 3K price point)

By the way, have you even heard the NAD?

2. Of course there is a rationalization in price. Otherwise, everyone should only buy the 40K receiver that had "acceptable measurements". Yeah... Right...

3. I never said measurements were not obtained competently. I said they´re very helpful if you´re researching. I did said this measurements could mislead someone (say, like you:p) as to believing an equipment is better than another solely taking those measurements into consideration. Hey, you bought the Yamaha 1080 thinking it would sound better ´cause it measured better. Well, it doesn´t. Still, great receiver though (I use the 2012 model RX-A 1020 with my turntable, nice sound and a very reliable brand).
 

Dj7675

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1. Distortion will still be there. But I couldn´t hear any distortion at reference levels and doubt that anyone could if used with competent speakers, with or without DIRAC. My point is, that even with the awful distortion (audible only assuming that you come from a dead planet with a red sun), DIRAC will still ensure a very pleasurable listening experience, superior to any receiver at its price point, or even up to the 3K price point)

By the way, have you even heard the NAD?

2. Of course there is a rationalization in price. Otherwise, everyone should only buy the 40K receiver that had "acceptable measurements". Yeah... Right...

3. I never said measurements were not obtained competently. I said they´re very helpful if you´re researching. I did said this measurements could mislead someone (say, like you:p) as to believing an equipment is better than another solely taking those measurements into consideration. Hey, you bought the Yamaha 1080 thinking it would sound better ´cause it measured better. Well, it doesn´t. Still, great receiver though (I use the 2012 model RX-A 1020 with my turntable, nice sound and a very reliable brand).

I find this discussion of T758 V3 an interesting case of how bad something can measure and still sound good which I think is important since how something ultimately sounds is the point. If it sounds good to you, I don't think anyone has a problem with that (I know I don't). But a few random comments from my perspective...
-I have owned the T758 V3 for about 18 months. I really do like Dirac. However, I was curious how it would test, so I bought a second one (new with the updated board from safeandsoundhq.com, which by the way are great to deal with). I don't think there is any reason to think it was defective. In addition to @amirm much more extensive testing, Sound and Vision also did their normal bench test which was also pretty poor it looks to me (link). I also attached the Denon X7200 for comparison. I don't think there is any reason to think it was defective, it just measures really, really bad. You don't need a 40K receiver (is there such a thing) to perform pretty well.
-It is great that the poor measurements aren't audible to you. It has Dirac, has a lot of features etc. But I do take issue with comments that say this really poor measurements of both the DAC and the Amps aren't audible... to anyone, at any level. That is a pretty bold statement that I just think is way over the top. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a lot of people would be able to pick on on that noise/distortion caused at those levels. Those measurements are pretty crazy bad.. In my theater, it sounded good to me (I do not have golden ears by any means) at moderate levels but found that after a few minutes I would always have to back off the volume to around -15 despite wanting it louder. Never gave it much thought until after I saw the measurements. I also moved the unit from the theater to our living room (much noisier environment) and an untreated room, and again found it sounded fine with volume from -15 to -25 on the volume. So while it sounds great to you at all levels, it doesn't to me in my setup at louder volumes.
-To state "LOL told you so" ... Is that in reference to the award mentioned, or other users saying it sounds good and agree with you? Neither means anything (at least to me). It doesn't mean anything to me necessarily or and doesn't disprove the NAD T758 measured deficiencies. Nor does it it in any way show that these measured flaws aren't audible to others.
-For $1499 ($1000 off) you can now get an Arcam AVR390. I couldn't find a bench test for one but looking at their other models it seems they measure relatively well and don't have to deal with the issues of the T758 which will be an issue for some people.

Just a few thoughts from a soon to be former owner. YMMV of course. It is just a receiver, so I don't get worked up about things and am happy that you are enjoying it. Carry on :)
 

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Sal1950

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I don't understand why we continue to have this same argument
Yes, Dirac is a great piece of DRC but that's no reason not to hold NAD's feet to the fire for producing such a poorly measuring piece of gear in this decade. They didn't design Dirac and deserve no kudos's for licensing some one else's hard engineering work. If they put half the energy into designing the receiver as Dirac did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Demand better guys, you have a right to expect it for your money in 2020.
 

Theriverlethe

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I find this discussion of T758 V3 an interesting case of how bad something can measure and still sound good which I think is important since how something ultimately sounds is the point. If it sounds good to you, I don't think anyone has a problem with that (I know I don't). But a few random comments from my perspective...
-I have owned the T758 V3 for about 18 months. I really do like Dirac. However, I was curious how it would test, so I bought a second one (new with the updated board from safeandsoundhq.com, which by the way are great to deal with). I don't think there is any reason to think it was defective. In addition to @amirm much more extensive testing, Sound and Vision also did their normal bench test which was also pretty poor it looks to me (link). I also attached the Denon X7200 for comparison. I don't think there is any reason to think it was defective, it just measures really, really bad. You don't need a 40K receiver (is there such a thing) to perform pretty well.
-It is great that the poor measurements aren't audible to you. It has Dirac, has a lot of features etc. But I do take issue with comments that say this really poor measurements of both the DAC and the Amps aren't audible... to anyone, at any level. That is a pretty bold statement that I just think is way over the top. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a lot of people would be able to pick on on that noise/distortion caused at those levels. Those measurements are pretty crazy bad.. In my theater, it sounded good to me (I do not have golden ears by any means) at moderate levels but found that after a few minutes I would always have to back off the volume to around -15 despite wanting it louder. Never gave it much thought until after I saw the measurements. I also moved the unit from the theater to our living room (much noisier environment) and an untreated room, and again found it sounded fine with volume from -15 to -25 on the volume. So while it sounds great to you at all levels, it doesn't to me in my setup at louder volumes.
-To state "LOL told you so" ... Is that in reference to the award mentioned, or other users saying it sounds good and agree with you? Neither means anything (at least to me). It doesn't mean anything to me necessarily or and doesn't disprove the NAD T758 measured deficiencies. Nor does it it in any way show that these measured flaws aren't audible to others.
-For $1499 ($1000 off) you can now get an Arcam AVR390. I couldn't find a bench test for one but looking at their other models it seems they measure relatively well and don't have to deal with the issues of the T758 which will be an issue for some people.

Just a few thoughts from a soon to be former owner. YMMV of course. It is just a receiver, so I don't get worked up about things and am happy that you are enjoying it. Carry on :)

Interesting, that S&V graph actually looks worse than what Amir showed, approaching -30dB before it even gets to 125W. It's soundly beaten by a receiver that can be had for less than $600. Obviously, the NAD wins in build quality, aeshetics, etc., but how important is that in a darkened home theater? A supposed audiophile company should be embarrassed, regardless of whether the poor performance reaches audibility (quite an accomplishment with modern integrated circuits). I wonder how much of this is due to hitting a price point with the perceived market demand to pay for an idiotic MQA license, etc., vs. simply failing to perform any measurements.
 

NoFuzz

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I could return my NAD T758v3 and bought a Denon X4500H. Not because of these measurements because I really liked the sound (on lower levels: when playing louder, it gets kind of harsh, I guess that is distortion). It is because of the distortion on 44.1 tracks which I could hear in most tracks and NAD was not sure if it could be fixed...

What I miss:
- BluOS, I like the app better compared to Denon's HEOS app. BluOS is much faster, more responsive. In Tidal I can only sort my albums alfabetically for example. And lots of other stuff.
- sterreo sound in lower levels.

What I like in the Denon:
- movies are much tighter, despite of DIRAC I love the sound bubble Audsyssey can generate at any level.
- I can play much louder.

For stereo I've opted for a separate integrated Stereo amplifier (about the cost of pricedifference, though I did go 2nd hand with a 4 year old Music Hall A70.2) which can also be used as power amp. I thought I would miss MQA, but I could not hear much difference on the NAD and my current stereo integrated sounds better, more refined, more detail, better placement. And that is just by playing through Google Chromecast audio, the regular 44.1khz tracks as it doesn't play any hi-res material.
 

Theriverlethe

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I could return my NAD T758v3 and bought a Denon X4500H. Not because of these measurements because I really liked the sound (on lower levels: when playing louder, it gets kind of harsh, I guess that is distortion). It is because of the distortion on 44.1 tracks which I could hear in most tracks and NAD was not sure if it could be fixed...

What I miss:
- BluOS, I like the app better compared to Denon's HEOS app. BluOS is much faster, more responsive. In Tidal I can only sort my albums alfabetically for example. And lots of other stuff.
- sterreo sound in lower levels.

What I like in the Denon:
- movies are much tighter, despite of DIRAC I love the sound bubble Audsyssey can generate at any level.
- I can play much louder.

For stereo I've opted for a separate integrated Stereo amplifier (about the cost of pricedifference, though I did go 2nd hand with a 4 year old Music Hall A70.2) which can also be used as power amp. I thought I would miss MQA, but I could not hear much difference on the NAD and my current stereo integrated sounds better, more refined, more detail, better placement. And that is just by playing through Google Chromecast audio, the regular 44.1khz tracks as it doesn't play any hi-res material.

MQA and “high-res” audio are just marketing gimmicks or attempts to charge patent/license fees for technology that surpassed the limits of human perception forty years ago.
 
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