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Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

Thomas savage

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Your idea makes no sense at all. If a person has elevated 14 khz, they hear that as normal. If you do away with or diminish what they normally hear they aren't going to hear what is normal to them. It will sound altered.

As to what someone prefer's, all bets are off. People prefer many things for many reasons beyond fidelity. You cannot know that someone with elevated 14 khz response prefers it be rolled off. They might, they might not, but we can say what they hear won't be high fidelity.
I wonder if some of this relates not to our potential mechanical, physical hearing differences but more our more likely than not similar acoustic environments we experience growing up.

If we took ten people from a pre industrial environment, say the rain forest and tested them.. then again how much of our hearing is based on past evolutionary events and comes pre programmed in our genes. This being so maybe we would have more in common with a pre industrial people's than we would assume.

Who knows .
 

peng

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Although, to be fair to NAD... if it works for Marantz in one of their flagship products - why not?

Wait a minute, it is two different cases. In Marantz case, they responded to my email quickly, confirming Amir's findings but stated that they chose the slow roll off filter setting, ie. by design! And as Amir stated in the review, that the spike's origin was in the ultrasonic range. It's probably fixable via FW, but it will unlikely because Marantz did it by choice, not by mistake. Again, it was all about filter settings that are programmable in the AK4490 DAC that was an ex AKM flag ship.

By the way, I don't know about the lower mid range T758, but I do know the older flag ship NAD T787 has the PCM1690 that is at least two notches below the AK4490. We can talk about "implementation" all we want but if implementation is so good, why keeping do it with such a mediocre DAC just to save a few dollars?
 

RichB

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I wonder if some of this relates not to our potential mechanical, physical hearing differences but more our more likely than not similar acoustic environments we experience growing up.

If we took ten people from a pre industrial environment, say the rain forest and tested them.. then again how much of our hearing is based on past evolutionary events and comes pre programmed in our genes. This being so maybe we would have more in common with a pre industrial people's than we would assume.

Who knows .

New study: Do folks from the rain forest should prefer 3D sound and which one: Atmos, DTS:X, or Auro3D .
Time to apply for a research grant. :p

- Rich
 

BDWoody

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I just hope that whenever it all gets worked out - we get to work immediately on changing all musical instruments to fit whatever it is. I seems to me they've been carelessly producing the exact same sound for every person, device, animal, and possibly wayward ghost that happened nearby. All of that poorly crafted sound being dumped into the air without concern for which ears were listening to them... it's just reckless IMO. :rolleyes::cool:

Those bastards...

I feel so...aurally violated...
 

peng

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I have the UMIK-1 measurements vary wildly in the 9 Dirac positions and when moved even an inch.
These devices are sensitive in ways that our ears/brain are not.

These efforts led to the conclusion that REQ/PEQ is best left to the below 150Hz in my room.
View attachment 33185

The dips at 800Hz and 1.5kHz were not confirmed using the OminMic2. Since the Salon2s are reasonably flat, this is due to reflections and as Dr. Floyd Toole has pointed out. Attempted correction is not recommended for a well designed speaker.
I'll try Dirac and PEQ again when I get my next processor.

- Rich

Like I said before, we need to put the two Doctors, Toole and Dirac Live's in the same room and have a good debate on that one. From what I could understand, they will agree on measuring/EQ'ing above the room transition frequency may not be always reliable as the results may not be consistent, but Toole advised not to do it whereas Dirac (actually Anthem too) would want people to try and see how what happens, in other words, it may work out well too. So no definite answer on that, I am doing some tests now and hopefully to find out which way I prefer.
 
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MrGoodbits

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This is where the disconnect is. Equating measurable response with what you or I hear or rather assuming the ear is a perfect recording instrument. Without even going into the philosophical implications of perception, there is a simple physiological phenomena of our ears changing in the way we can her or not hear certain frequencies. Many in this forum have already become insensitive to certain frequencies with age. It is not a binary of hearing or not hearing.

If, somehow, one were able to plot the FR just physiologically transmitted by the ears to the brain, I suspect it would look different for each person and be as wild at times as the worst speaker or the worst room.

This concept that all of our ears pick up exactly and similarly the sound saves that reach our ears is the fundamental false premise behind perfect reproduction. One ought to think about this more.
Sure everyone's ears and brains are different, but they can still can be used analytically. Well, within reason. Here's a thought experiment I keep coming back to when I wonder about this stuff.

Imagine a test setup where participants listen to a recording in two forms:
- an original form (A),
- an altered form (B), where bass EQ has been applied in an amount unknown to the participants.

Participants listen to A and B, freely switching, and are asked to adjust a bass control knob (without markings!) for B until it sounds like A. Essentially, they are trying to reverse the alteration to B, just by ear.

Would most people get pretty close? I think they'd get very close, even with all the human variables in play like brain, ears, mood, etc. It doesn't matter if some people hear bass as treble, or midrange as the color blue, or 400 Hz as salty.

The point is that our ears can discern changes in sound within limits. I don't want my system to inherently make changes.
 

digicidal

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Wait a minute, it is two different cases. In Marantz case, they responded to my email quickly, confirming Amir's findings but stated that they chose the slow roll off filter setting, ie. by design! And as Amir stated in the review, that the spike's origin was in the ultrasonic range. It's probably fixable via FW, but it will unlikely because Marantz did it by choice, not by mistake. Again, it was all about filter settings that are programmable in the AK4490 DAC that was an ex AKM flag ship.

By the way, I don't know about the lower mid range T758, but I do know the older flag ship NAD T787 has the PCM1690 that is at least two notches below the AK4490. We can talk about "implementation" all we want but if implementation is so good, why keeping do it with such a mediocre DAC just to save a few dollars?

Yes, it's a different case - as far as support is concerned. What's consistent is that both companies made conscious decisions to release something that provably degrades the performance of the implentation... in one case for "boutique sound styling" and in the other (well, we don't know yet - but my guess is money). As to the second part... I have no idea why - but it's more the norm than the exception IME.

I've wondered that with almost every product in every category. Same reason companies design products to fail rather than to last as long as possible... because we accept it, and they profit from it. Maybe NAD just messed up twice on the same part of the same product - unlikely but who knows for sure. My guess is there aren't as many differences in the two situations as you think. ;)

Would most people get pretty close? I think they'd get very close, even with all the human variables in play like brain, ears, mood, etc. It doesn't matter if some people hear bass as treble, or midrange as the color blue, or 400 Hz as salty.

I tend to like my mid-bass a bit more on the savory side of things... but I'm fine with blue, as long as it's higher than the crossover frequency. :D
 

peng

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Looking forward to the Anthem MRX520 review/measurements. I see a review of the MRX510 and the MRX710 with some measurements and they seem to be much better.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/receivers/anthem-mrx-510-receiver-review/
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-710-av-receiver-test-bench

Yeah I read all those reviews and you are right the 710 measure well in terms of power output and distortions, significantly better than the MRX-700. Based on S&V's I would say it seems comparable to the likes of the SR7011/12/AVR-X4400H.
 

RichB

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Like I said before, we need to put the two Doctors, Toole and Dirac Live's in the same room and have a good debate on that one. From what I could understand, they will agree on measuring/EQ'ing above the room transition frequency may not be always reliable as the results may not be consistent, but Toole advice not to do it whereas Dirac (actually Anthem too) would want people to try and see how what happens, in other words, it may work out well too. So no definite answer on that, I am doing some tests now and hopefully to find out which way I prefer.

Toole's point is that these MICs do not reflect what we hear above the room transition so applying correction makes a well designed speaker sound worse.

Many just run REQ, examine predictive charts until they like the result and pronounce it science.
To an objectivist, wouldn't those charts be bias inducing?

I am not using Dirac with the XMC-1. The measurements lookrf better but the soundstage was changed somehow, even with the curtain set to 25Hz. This did not happen applying PEQ which in about 30 minutes I could flatten the bass without this effect:
EMM-1 8-Band PEQ.jpg
\

- Rich
 

RichB

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Like I said before, we need to put the two Doctors, Toole and Dirac Live's in the same room and have a good debate on that one. From what I could understand, they will agree on measuring/EQ'ing above the room transition frequency may not be always reliable as the results may not be consistent, but Toole advised not to do it whereas Dirac (actually Anthem too) would want people to try and see how what happens, in other words, it may work out well too. So no definite answer on that, I am doing some tests now and hopefully to find out which way I prefer.

There once was a tool name Dirac.
The founder of which declares perfect.
Dr. Toole is no fool and does not agree and for this advice, no fee.

- Rich
 

digicidal

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I wonder if some of this relates not to our potential mechanical, physical hearing differences but more our more likely than not similar acoustic environments we experience growing up.

If we took ten people from a pre industrial environment, say the rain forest and tested them.. then again how much of our hearing is based on past evolutionary events and comes pre programmed in our genes. This being so maybe we would have more in common with a pre industrial people's than we would assume.

Who knows .

I think it's safe to say they would have significantly less damaged hearing in general - probably more accurate as well. When your hearing is used mostly for entertainment purposes as opposed to avoiding death... I think it has a profound effect most likely. I'm sure their visual acuity and reflexes are a little better too - for the same reasons. Whether this is due to actual physical differences or simply due to heightened cerebral priority given - that's even harder to say.
 

RichB

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RichB

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Thanks. I thought maybe it was applying to you or something. :)
Nope. I topped out at a B.S., I needed to work for food.

- Rich
 

JoachimStrobel

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Like I said before, we need to put the two Doctors, Toole and Dirac Live's in the same room and have a good debate on that one. From what I could understand, they will agree on measuring/EQ'ing above the room transition frequency may not be always reliable as the results may not be consistent, but Toole advised not to do it whereas Dirac (actually Anthem too) would want people to try and see how what happens, in other words, it may work out well too. So no definite answer on that, I am doing some tests now and hopefully to find out which way I prefer.

Limiting below 500 hz or so is ok for a 2 channel setup without a projector screen in front. For 5 speakers tonal equalization up to 10khz seems important as a true multichannel recording will carry a lot of direct sound from all speakers, hence Dirac full frequency is good then - but needs a room curve!
 

peng

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There once was a tool name Dirac.
The founder of which declares perfect.
Dr. Toole is no fool and does not agree and for this advice, no fee.

- Rich

I don't know we really know which doctor is right, not in this kind of stuff. And I am sure if you and I are interpreting what Dr. Toole said 100% correctly. Can he be contacted via email?
 

digicidal

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@Floyd Toole will likely weigh in eventually... he stops by from time to time after all. I do remember a discussion to that effect - essentially that the only broadly non-deleterious application of DSP was that below room transition frequency - and above was likely doing harm as often as good. My guess is it's quoted in one of the psycho-acoustics posts... but I haven't found it yet.

Here's a start:
Room correction, speaker correction anything above Schroeder a mistake?
Overview of Room Acoustics
Subwoofer / Low Frequency Optimization <--- More links in @amirm's OP for background.
 
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