Review and Measurements of NAD M17 V2 Pre/Pro

[Blumlein 88]

From my 20 year old Krell Showcase processor owners manual:
View attachment 33485

So that isn't exactly fantastic performance there is it. Not equal to a Krell stereo preamp. Then again, you are still using it 20 years later, and nothing else seen so far is better except an Oppo player.

 

[amirm]

I wonder if you took out all the analog video circuitry if that might improve things slightly right there? Don't remember if that had any appreciable effect in the Marantz (Pure Direct mode). Although there would be a difference between removing entirely and just defeating electronically I imagine. At the very least, if they got rid of all that, they'd have more room in the chassis for better separation/shielding.

Since I am testing HDMI, it is not possible to turn off video circuits. Audio is slaved to video in HDMI. At any rate, I won't be able to see what I am doing if I can't see my computer monitor.

Everyone uses it with video anyway so this type of testing is representative of actual use.

 

[digicidal]

Since I am testing HDMI, it is not possible to turn off video circuits. Audio is slaved to video in HDMI. At any rate, I won't be able to see what I am doing if I can't see my computer monitor.

Everyone uses it with video anyway so this type of testing is representative of actual use.

It's the same with the Marantz - it's just the analog video that's defeated - the HDMI is still functional even in Pure Direct. No composite/component in out however. I wouldn't expect in a modern AVR/PRO that the HDMI would be defeatable.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wonder if you took out all the analog video circuitry if that might improve things slightly right there? Don't remember if that had any appreciable effect in the Marantz (Pure Direct mode). Although there would be a difference between removing entirely and just defeating electronically I imagine. At the very least, if they got rid of all that, they'd have more room in the chassis for better separation/shielding.

When I tested the older Marantz 7701, Pure Direct actually was very slightly worse. I did the test more than once to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

Lower graph in this post.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ntz-avr-7701-dac-measurements.3485/post-84218

Not that such means this would always be the result. It was in this case however.

 

[RichB]

Since I am testing HDMI, it is not possible to turn off video circuits. Audio is slaved to video in HDMI. At any rate, I won't be able to see what I am doing if I can't see my computer monitor.

Everyone uses it with video anyway so this type of testing is representative of actual use.

Oppo players had the same performance with video on or off. This is not an excuse for poor performance.

Many new processors have HDMI switching with audio extraction and no OSD. Emotiva has a blended video overlay. I believe Marantz replaces the video during setup. In any case, HDMI seems to be getting simplified without scaling and added processing (correctly IMO) removed.

- Rich

 

[mi-fu]

These companies need to hire an anal audio performance czar to review the product and have veto power over its release.

Isn't it the raison d'etre of this site?

 

[amirm]

Isn't it the raison d'etre of this site?

I am available! Hourly rate starts at $1,000/hour and goes up from there.....

 

[BDWoody]

So that isn't exactly fantastic performance there is it. Not equal to a Krell stereo preamp. Then again, you are still using it 20 years later, and nothing else seen so far is better except an Oppo player.

Indeed, not stellar, and not close I would hope...but for an actual AVR from ' back in the day', it still remains very competent...at least...and I can go from my oppo bdp93 analog 7.1 out, direct through the showcase, and it is really hard to find fault with it... I 'like' it better than my Integra 80.3 used upstairs...

 

[restorer-john]

When I tested the older Marantz 7701, Pure Direct actually was very slightly worse

I've tested plenty of 2 channel stereo amplifiers from the "tone bypass/pure direct/CD direct" era where the performance has been worse in bypass mode (not always thank goodness). Even when studying the schematics, the cable dress, the switching and the layout it made no sense. Sometimes I've swept amplifiers where not only was the noise greater in tone bypass, the FR was less flat.

Here's a quick example from my files, a vintage Marantz 1152DC in my collection. Plots offset for visibility (bottom plot is low and high filters engaged) except the top two. Which one do you think is tone bypass? You know the answer- the orange/red one. Level higher- response poorer...

One of these classics:

 

[Sal1950]

Once again as I have noted in the past, the DIrac Room EQ is a major plus here and should in practice produce excellent sound. Just don't go around bragging to your friends that you have a best design audio/video processor. So much low-hanging fruit was left in the design of M17 V2.

Thanks so much for all the hard work you've put into measuring these components. Multich front-ends shouldn't be so hard to find with good performance numbers, specially when you reach this price level. I gave them some elbow room excuses due to the amount of hardware and software that needs to be included compared to a simple stereo receiver, but $6k should offer something at least equal to a good stereo integrated. If I just plugged my $500 Emo DAC directly into one of my amps it would make a monkey of this piece on the bench..

Each of these receiver/processor reviews makes me feel slightly better about my 8802A. Slightly.

Me too, if I could just get the damn Audyssey Editor app to function correctly on my Marantz 7703 I'd be happy and not looking for anything else. I really want a good DRC system, no matter 2 or 13 channels. IMO, Good functioning room correction software is mandatory in this day and age.

Thanks also to the owner for his generous loan of the M17. your consideration has answered a lot of questions for us and may also help contribute to down-the-road improvement of the genre as this knowledge spreads.

 

[Sal1950]

Here's a quick example from my files, a vintage Marantz 1152DC in my collection. Plots offset for visibility (bottom plot is low and high filters engaged) except the top two. Which one do you think is tone bypass? You know the answer. Level higher- response poorer...

What a beautiful rig! Back in the day most everything was made with nice aluminum front panels and knobs, glass bezels in front of the tuning dials, etc. Today, unless your spending 5 figures or more all you get is cheap plastic crap.

 

[restorer-john]

What a beautiful rig!

Marantz's most beautiful designs were, in my opinion, the perfectly symmetrical front panel layouts. The little 1060 is arguably even prettier.

This NAD amir has reviewed is very visually appealing. Back in around 2003 or so they introduced the "masters series" and it was perhaps a little dull (colors) but had the same simple, symmetrical layout. It has stood the test of time well from a design perpective, like those vintage Marantzs. Pity the NAD doesn't measure up.

 

[raif71]

UDP-205 is out of my price range. how does UDP-203 fare compared to 205?

I'm planning to get a UDP-203 and a 4k AVR....cost will be slightly more than 205...so should I buy the 205 instead and get some hdmi switching like one poster is using?

 

[digicidal]

I'm planning to get a UDP-203 and a 4k AVR....cost will be slightly more than 205...so should I buy the 205 instead and get some hdmi switching like one poster is using?

They both (203/205) have an HDMI input - so unless you have multiple HDMI devices you wish to pass through to a TV, you might not even need the switcher. If you want room correction of some kind you'll either need a multichannel DSP (like miniDSP DDRC-88A) or an AVR anyway. Do you already have amplification? Despite all that's disappointing about these - it's hard to get all that an AVR offers in one box without having a whole stack of separates.

 

[digicidal]

Processor DAC Audio Measurements
It was with much anticipation that I powered on the unit and ran my dashboard tone of 1 kHz/24-bit through it:
View attachment 33451

If it weren't for that 2nd harmonic, it would be the mains contribution that would dominate it seems... I wouldn't expect to see that in a processor at this price point either. Maybe because they knew it would be buried it wasn't considered an issue?

Here's a quick example from my files, a vintage Marantz 1152DC in my collection. Plots offset for visibility (bottom plot is low and high filters engaged) except the top two. Which one do you think is tone bypass? You know the answer- the orange/red one. Level higher- response poorer...

Maybe they figured it was better to fake a "better sound" than to just make it do what it's supposed to - knowing that 99% of the people they sold them to would then think it was broken and did nothing. It's pretty hard (if not impossible depending on conditions) to tell a 5% improvement in noise floor - at least with just your ears it is.

 

[raif71]

They both (203/205) have an HDMI input - so unless you have multiple HDMI devices you wish to pass through to a TV, you might not even need the switcher. If you want room correction of some kind you'll either need a multichannel DSP (like miniDSP DDRC-88A) or an AVR anyway. Do you already have amplification? Despite all that's disappointing about these - it's hard to get all that an AVR offers in one box without having a whole stack of separates.

I do need amplification for 7.1 speakers. I was under the impression that 205 can do that. Also, there will be multiple devices to connect to the display. My original plan was to get a Yamaha rx-v685 and udp-203 but if the 205 can be "avr" as well.... might as well get the single 205 and hdmi switcher... thanks.

 

[HammerSandwich]

I am available! Hourly rate starts at $1,000/hour and goes up from there.....

You're doing good work, Amir, but there can only be one master of anal audio performance.

 

[maty]

I don't know this is why the analog input here is so noisy, but I think basic housekeeping likely explains this and other aspects of poor AV performance. A few years back a fellow had one of the Denon units. He wanted to use the analog input for RTR. Only that input had SNR in the low 50's. Noticeable even with his tape source. He investigated it. Found the power supply traces to connect to several devices and were suspiciously small. He snipped the PS traces at the daughter board of the ADC chip. Used CAT 5 to connect to the source of power for those traces on multiple boards. Then placed some capacitors on the daughter board (which was one tight fit). The ADC chip among other things was starving for current according to him, and being fed about as much noise as clean power. This simple change of twisted small gauge wire and some capacitance boosted the SNR into the mid 90 db range...

Again, the botlenecks.

Old picture of my AVR, without the piece of galvanized steel to isolate the Big EI transformer from audio electronics and before other tweaks and mods. Teflon (from plumbing, cheap) and chubby cable covers are our friends.

A picture of inside when it came to my hands, photo of the seller, at my request I think, I am not sure now. Phones by then had worse cameras!

 

[digicidal]

I do need amplification for 7.1 speakers. I was under the impression that 205 can do that. Also, there will be multiple devices to connect to the display. My original plan was to get a Yamaha rx-v685 and udp-203 but if the 205 can be "avr" as well.... might as well get the single 205 and hdmi switcher... thanks.

Well, as far as having simple volume control and 8ch preamp outputs... they both do. As far as features there are almost no differences, as far as components and measured quality - the 205 has the obvious edge (the question is whether that's worth the extra ~$1500 or not at current prices). So either one can drive a 7 channel amp and a subwoofer. They even have limited DSP capabilities where you can choose between fullrange or small speaker settings, set a crossover point for the sub, and provide coarse level trims and distances to the speakers to correct delay issues and level matching.

However, they do not do this automatically - they just play a test tone so you can use an SPL meter to adjust trims and you have to enter distances manually as well as specifiy downmix options if you're not running a full setup. I'd say (admittedly completely subjective assessment on my part) that even the worst room correction in a cheaper AVR will likely produce slightly better results - and much better if it has bass managment and is at least attempting to deal with room modes.

 

[amirm]

FYI, I just tested the analog input of the Anthem MRX 520 and compared it to NAD M17 V2: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ements-of-anthem-mrx-520-avr.8961/post-229471

The M2 is definitely worse and by a good margin.