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Review and Measurements of Musical Fidelity M2si Amp

audio_tony

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As long as an amp measures well, why do you care if its a/b or D

In my experience, some Class D amps can measure well but sound awful. This applies almost universally to HiFi, DACs, amps, speakers...

Good measurements don't always necessarily make for good sound.

There is a UK manufacturer - LFD - who never measure* their products, they used listening tests only (allegedly!).

*not sure if they measure them these days...
 
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amirm

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Good measurements don't always necessarily make for good sound.
They do actually. Very much so. That is, if you test properly and rely on sound alone as I do.
 

audio_tony

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They do actually. Very much so. That is, if you test properly and rely on sound alone as I do.

My own experience suggests otherwise, especially with DACs.

They can have low THD, noise and excellent SINAD but yet it still doesn't sound 'right' (no faults present).

Change it out for another DAC with same (or even inferior) spec, and it sounds 'right'.

I've had the same with amps too. I realise that in some cases it could be down to lack of synergy etc. but I don't believe this is always the case.
 

Xulonn

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May be it's my lack of more thorough knowledge on this topic but As long as an amp measures well, why do you care if its a/b or D or anything else?

Sometimes, even if one recognizes the illogical nature of one's own prejudices, it is easier to accommodate that prejudice than to defeat the complex psychological nature of our human foibles. If a Class AB amp sounds as good as a Class D amp, the only things you are sacrificing are weight and electrical efficiency.
 
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amirm

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My own experience suggests otherwise, especially with DACs.

They can have low THD, noise and excellent SINAD but yet it still doesn't sound 'right' (no faults present).
Because they can't! Measurements are reliable and objective. Your listening tests are not. So when they don't agree, you should look to your listening test protocol first, not the measurements. Match levels and have someone test you blind 10 times and see if you can pick the one you like 8 out of 10 times. If you cannot then you are not able to tell them apart let alone have a preference for one.
 

audio_tony

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Because they can't! Measurements are reliable and objective. Your listening tests are not.

I think we should agree to disagree!

I don't by any stretch of the imagination regard myself as one of those dreaded audiophiles who thinks he can hear things that are simply not there - I'm just going on my experience. I've built several DACs and preamps, and in the case of the DACs it's easy to ensure they are level matched by design (maintaining the filter characteristics of course) and I know what I've heard. My son has unwittingly commented on occasion that my system hasn't sounded right, and this is because I've had a 'bad' component in for testing (and he's not been aware of it) and yet he's heard the difference.
 

Blumlein 88

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I think we should agree to disagree!

I don't by any stretch of the imagination regard myself as one of those dreaded audiophiles who thinks he can hear things that are simply not there - I'm just going on my experience. I've built several DACs and preamps, and in the case of the DACs it's easy to ensure they are level matched by design (maintaining the filter characteristics of course) and I know what I've heard. My son has unwittingly commented on occasion that my system hasn't sounded right, and this is because I've had a 'bad' component in for testing (and he's not been aware of it) and yet he's heard the difference.
Welcome to the club.

Do what Amir suggests. Level matched, and have someone swap things around. You know what you heard, but that doesn't mean differences were in the signal itself. You can't prevent yourself from failing in this way. Built into the human brain. No matter how honest, earnest and careful you are you are still prone to hearing what isn't there.
 

audio_tony

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...have someone swap things around. You know what you heard...

I don't actually like trying to listen for differences, as I think that's when the brain is most prone to hearing things that are not there.

You know... like when you wake up to a nasty thump in the middle of the night and you start listening for other noises and suddenly start hearing things that are made up in your mind...!

This is why I tend to avoid A/B comparisons. Sometimes I just randomly switch between DACs when my wife is sat listening with me, and she notices the difference (I've not told her about the change, or even prompted her).
 

dkinric

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Audio_tony, I think you wandered into the wrong room. It's kind of the mission statement of this site that given the proper equipment and testing methods, one can measure the sound of a DAC or amp. I think it much more likely that either your bias is not as easy to overcome as you believe, or you sometimes prefer the sound of components that don't measure as well.
Which is a whole other interesting topic - see tube amps, turntables, even vs odd harmonic distortion, etc. But I believe in most cases, in a blind comparison, better measuring products will sound better to most people.
 

audio_tony

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I think you wandered into the wrong room

I have an open mind. I have repaired audio equipment for 35+ years and have heard many, many different systems and combinations thereof, which I believe has enabled me to keep an open mind.

I still enjoy this site, and we are all entitled to our opinions. :)
 
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patient_ot

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IIRC, MF, as a company was sold to Pro-Ject, who are revamping the line or doing something with it. There is still loads of deadstock from before then and a few retailers have bought up a bunch of it and are selling it at a discount off MSRP. Some of them are also pushing it pretty hard to move that deadstock. I predict these will continue to be slow sellers and will have further price drops in the next year.

RE: analog inputs on an integrated, that's fine. Labeling them "tape, tuner, etc." is very old fashioned though. I like "input 1, 2, etc." better.
 

dkinric

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Fair enough. Keeping in mind that provided "measurements" can be misleading and false, as we have seen time and time again here. Manufacturer's "measurements" of their own equipment are notoriously inaccurate, and not many independent testers have a $20k analyzer like Amir.

Curious if you can provide an example of a dac or amp that has "low THD, noise and excellent SINAD but yet it still doesn't sound 'right' (no faults present)" Not trying to argue or prove you wrong, just genuinely curious if there was an item out there that has confirmed good measurements but consensus bad sound.
 

dkinric

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Well, What hi-fi would agree. Not that they are the definitive voice, but for them to publish a review and grant a component only 3 stars is rare.
If you would indulge the conversation, two questions:
1. Did you come to the conclusion of it's poor sonic merits BEFORE you read other impressions of poor sound?
2. How did you measure? What equipment are you using and can you publish the results of those measurements?
 

Anmol

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I have an Audiolab Q DAC - it just doesn't sound as good as one would expect it to - and yet it measures fine (I've measured it myself).

There have been other commercial examples.
I am sure if you can courier product to amir he could add to his testing queue then we would all have learnt something new. -:)
 

audio_tony

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Well, What hi-fi would agree. Not that they are the definitive voice, but for them to publish a review and grant a component only 3 stars is rare.
If you would indulge the conversation, two questions:
1. Did you come to the conclusion of it's poor sonic merits BEFORE you read other impressions of poor sound?

I bought it on a whim (Ebay 'buy it now'), and hadn't read any reviews before buying.
After using it for a few weeks, I realised I simply didn't like it.

2. How did you measure? What equipment are you using and can you publish the results of those measurements?

I don't have anything as good as Amir - but I use an Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card with Virtins MI software.

I might have the measurements somewhere - if I can't find them I'll measure it again and publish tomorrow as it's too late to do so here in the UK now.

EDIT: I found the measurements.
 

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dkinric

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Thanks for playing along, Tony. I'm no expert, but with my limited knowledge, those measurements look fine, with SINAD around 100db and noise below -120db. If these were replicated by Amir, we would think it's a transparent DAC. Wonder if other measurements would show a weakness?
 
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