Review and Measurements of MARCH audio dac1

[Wombat]

How many of you can identify the source of your watch movement? Mostly it is the case and band that sells a regular grade watch. The performance difference between most watch movements is not unlike the performance difference between most DACs, i.e. negligible in practical use.

 

[Kyle / MrHeeHo]

khadas tone board and march audio dac1:
even the location of usb and RCA port is same
the ring of rca is same

I think one of them must be copied.
View attachment 19124

or they use some of the same off-the-shelf parts that most manufacturers use

 

[restorer-john]

If I were to sell an amp with Hypex modules in it, I'd say that clearly, and show which ones I used and give them credit. If I create a DAC, I'd say it uses ESS this or AKM that.

OK, let's put this into perspective.

All the Turntables made in the 1970s and 1980s OEM'd by Chuo Denki for Pioneer, Marantz, Teac, Akai etc etc that used Japan Servomotor Direct drive motors, Matsushita drive circuitry and arms made by Jelco should have stated that?
All the amplifiers (thousands of them) that used Sanyo thick-film-hybrid STK-xxxx complete class AB amplifier chips should have stated that?
Luxman, Onkyo, Kenwood, NAD, Nikko etc should have stated that their CD players were OEM'd completely by Toshiba?

Have a look inside any modern piece of HiFi gear and I virtually guarantee you the entire switch-mode supply is made by a third party. The boards are pre-populated in a board house and the casework is made somewhere else.

I mean, how far do you want to go? Do you want a full BOM? Get real.

 

[noobie1]

OK, let's put this into perspective.

All the Turntables made in the 1970s and 1980s OEM'd by Chuo Denki for Pioneer, Marantz, Teac, Akai etc etc that used Japan Servomotor Direct drive motors, Matsushita drive circuitry and arms made by Jelco should have stated that?
All the amplifiers (thousands of them) that used Sanyo thick-film-hybrid STK-xxxx complete class AB amplifier chips should have stated that?
Luxman, Onkyo, Kenwood, NAD, Nikko etc should have stated that their CD players were OEM'd completely by Toshiba?

Have a look inside any modern piece of HiFi gear and I virtually guarantee you the entire switch-mode supply is made by a third party. The boards are pre-populated in a board house and the casework is made somewhere else.

I mean, how far do you want to go? Do you want a full BOM? Get real.

For many people, the whole point of buying from a small hobbyist in an obscure audio forum is avoid a charades act like the one you've described above.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

OK, let's put this into perspective.

All the Turntables made in the 1970s and 1980s OEM'd by Chuo Denki for Pioneer, Marantz, Teac, Akai etc etc that used Japan Servomotor Direct drive motors, Matsushita drive circuitry and arms made by Jelco should have stated that?
All the amplifiers (thousands of them) that used Sanyo thick-film-hybrid STK-xxxx complete class AB amplifier chips should have stated that?i
Luxman, Onkyo, Kenwood, NAD, Nikko etc should have stated that their CD players were OEM'd completely by Toshiba?

Have a look inside any modern piece of HiFi gear and I virtually guarantee you the entire switch-mode supply is made by a third party. The boards are pre-populated in a board house and the casework is made somewhere else.

I mean, how far do you want to go? Do you want a full BOM? Get real.

What you are describing is somewhat different. At this point the less said the better IMO.

 

[Wombat]

I am getting an insight into the mentality of a lynch mob.

 

[DonH56]

Components are often considered proprietary in commercial products. Key chips are epoxied or blacked out, a run with custom part numbers is made, etc. I disagree with this "we must know everything" viewpoint and do not see it as a charade. Again, I have decades of R&D and product development in "don't let the secrets out" environments (gov't and commercial), so perhaps my viewpoint is non-standard. But I also think this will successfully run off any other designer/manufacturer considering posting here and that is sad IMO.

I built a four-channel amplifier in high school using four Sanken 1050 hybrids (4 x 50 W -- high power in 1974 or so). It was built using point-to-point wiring on a wooden platform using surplus heat sinks and a big honkin' power transformer and surplus caps. Ugly as sin but got me through a lot of DJ jobs and helped pay my last couple of years of high school (was on my own at a fairly young age). It was all in the open -- too cheap to buy and too busy/lazy to build a fancy (or even tacky) enclosure. No hiding what I'd done, but somehow my high-school and college peers thought it was pretty cool anyway. I did build and sell a few units in fancy boxes. Probably be jailed for that now after being ridiculed for using the same amps everybody else was using. I did properly connect the safety ground, but having exposed wires and tie-points everywhere on my prototype is a no-no (the units I sold were fully enclosed and used more standard construction practices).

 

[Tatteredmidnight]

@March Audio is providing considerable value on top of whatever he built this DAC around. If he has an arrangement with the Khadas team, does this really matter? Break it down a bit. If we accept the allegations as true (a moderate leap), let's assume $100 for the tone board in moderate volume. He is purportedly QA'ing the devices, importing them to Australia, has built a custom enclosure with high levels of fit and finish, is offering local (to Australian customers) customer service, and a warranty that would be far less expensive to redeem for his countrymen.

So, presuming he did use the tone board with minimal modification (removing an input), and if the $350 price he mentioned is accurate, he is taking considerable risk in inventory and expenses (prototyping and producing the enclosure at the very least) for something like 3.5x the cost of just the tone board.

It would certainly seem that full disclosure would be the best course of action, but if what he (allegedly) has done is OK with the Khadas team, I'd personally be inclined to cut him a bit more slack. The only real question for me is, why the mystery, why not just clear this up once and for all. That is the bit that is troublesome from my perspective, and other than some form of NDA, I can't think of a good reason for him not to address this.

 

[March Audio]

Good morning everyone, just woken up and found this has continued to degenerate.

I have an OEM arrangement with Khadas. I did so prior to this Toneboard becoming noticed as a DIY option.

I chose this board after a lot of research and testing because it essentially extracts pretty much all there is to get out of the ES9038Q2M chip. It performs better than most, possibly all implementations from other dac manufacturers. It would be totally pointless to re invent the wheel and design / make my own own board for this product. Nothing to be gained. Sub contracting electronic work is nothing unusual. As an off the top of my head example the Project dac. Board designed by John Westlake, put in a Project case. Same with the Audio lab MDAC. NAD and other manufacturers use Hypex modules.

I haven't hidden the fact that it's a Khadas product but clearly it was a mistake not to openly advertise the fact. The implications of deception are unfounded and unreasonable.

The second implication that this is some kind of rip off is also totally unreasonable. You are simply not buying a board and a case. You are buying a product. A product has additional intrinsic value. Testing, performance confirmation, warranty and if course the fact that that it's a higher standard than you can DIY. Oh yes and then there is the man hours you would put in to "doing this yourself". If you are an individual that sees no value in any of that then please go ahead and DIY.

Just to mention other products. The amps use Hypex modules. Again this is because they offer superlative performance. However these modules are not available to the public, but if you want to diy there are some hypex modules available to the general public.

The headphone amp is my own design, pcb etc. It's not an OEM board.

The forthcoming pre amp will be my own design, not an OEM board.

The forthcoming streamer will use an OEM small board computer. Software will be developed by a 3rd party.

So if some object to all of this please feel free to look elsewhere, you have plenty of choice.


Finally, I have seen some comments above casting aspersions on Amir's integrity. This is totally unacceptable. I am pretty disgusted by that. Amir has kindly tested and reviewed my product, that's all. Just an objective assessment, which is what ASR is all about. People should be very grateful for the service and information he is providing to the audio community allowing you to make informed choices.

Hope that helps

Alan

 

[Killingbeans]

A few hundred dollars seems more than fair for a super small run of CNC milled enclosures + anodizing + silk screening + assembly + testing and other "tidbits".

Cheap chinese manufacturing is very cool and all (with proper quality control), but it shouldn't be confused with a sense of entitlement.

 

[Pillars]

Well with all the puff up and anticipation about designing some amazing measuring DAC one would think it was a proprietary design. This is a Khardas board in an aluminum box. Amir surely could have guessed.... He is pretty forthcoming with information and similarities, usually. The fact of sponsership and the soft review surely roused suspicion. So with that, I'm getting out before the dumpster fire starts~

 

[restorer-john]

I did build and sell a few units in fancy boxes. Probably be jailed for that now after being ridiculed for using the same amps everybody else was using.

I bet they are still going too, playing Stayin' Alive in someone's garage system right now, as we speak.

Edit: Don, your memory is fine, right down to the type number. I just scanned this from a 1976 magazine I'd remembered had the Sankens advertised in it.

I know those Sanken modules. Pioneer used them in their SA-7300 integrated amplifer. Silver aluminium front package, black writing. SP-40W or something.

Actually, IIRC, inside the Sanken modules (the first series), the output devices were through hole Toshiba TO-220s with the tabs cut down. I've got a pic someplace of a cut-open one.

 

[Wombat]

A very revealing thread and I am not referring to the DAC or its mfr.

 

[Tatteredmidnight]

I think this situation actually reaffirms the value of this site, in a big way. Through what is effectively a double blind test, the community was easily able to determine the implementation through objective measurement alone. It also validates the reproducibility of @amirm's results across samples.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Thank you for the clarifications, March Audio. They mean a lot to a number of us. It makes sense that you would want to use the performance of the Tone Board in what is becoming a fleshed-out lineup of March Audio equipment. I think everyone can understand the aesthetic consideration of wanting to have components from the same family with similar, stackable case designs.

 

[Georgrig]

Isn't it a bit hypocritical that the measurements for the same product were published twice (and the fact was concealed), only so that an overpriced enclosure gets a recommendation? I had a higher esteem for this forum; this was a low point, indeed.

 

[DonH56]

Isn't it a bit hypocritical that the measurements for the same product were published twice (and the fact was concealed), only so that an overpriced enclosure gets a recommendation? I had a higher esteem for this forum; this was a low point, indeed.

I think you are assuming an overlap and conspiracy that does not exist.

 

[infinitesymphony]

@Georgrig, this is the trickiest part of this situation, and what makes it somewhat unique. Is it possible for a fully-functional device to be considered a component? If March Audio have an official agreement with Khadas, the answer would seem to be yes; the addition of a case technically makes it a new product.

(edit: removed 'PSU' from additions -- my mistake)

 

[derp1n]

@Georgrig, this is the trickiest part of this situation, and what makes it somewhat unique. Is it possible for a fully-functional device to be considered a component? If March Audio have an official agreement with Khadas, the answer would seem to be yes; the additions of a PSU and case technically make it a new product.

What PSU?

 

[DonH56]

I bet they are still going too, playing Stayin' Alive in someone's garage system right now, as we speak.

Edit: Don, your memory is fine, right down to the type number. I just scanned this from a 1976 magazine I'd remembered had the Sankens advertised in it.

View attachment 19195

I know those Sanken modules. Pioneer used them in their SA-7300 integrated amplifer. Silver aluminium front package, black writing. SP-40W or something.

View attachment 19193

Actually, IIRC, inside the Sanken modules (the first series), the output devices were through hole Toshiba TO-220s with the tabs cut down. I've got a pic someplace of a cut-open one.

That's them! Thanks for bringing back the memories (and confirmation that I am not totally senile just yet)! I was a tech at the time and I saw the lower-power modules i some product (forget which one). In the course of getting replacements and talking with them about the modules, the Sanken distributor provided me with a number of their modules at wholesale prices. I built several lower-powered boxes and even a couple of bridged designs. We all beat the heck out of them and they survived all the abuse so I was pretty impressed.

I also built some integrateds and preamps using the hot new LM381A chip...