Review and Measurements of Marantz AV8805 AV Processor

[charlesp210]

Unlikely considering there's a correlating Denon offering for almost any Marantz (and more of course)... unless there was a significant cost savings - at the component level - I would guess any differences are merely 'hobbling' of features that are still present. In many cases they're probably more 'hard-set' at the factory than on the Marantz version. Though this would merely be conjecture on my part based on owning several models from both brands over the years. I can't see adding internal amps equaling less noise (and a lower MSRP)... but anything is possible.

They might choose to use a "correct" neutral sounding steep digital filter rather than a "champagne sound" slow digital filter.

It's a design choice, not a matter of more intense circuitry. And possibly one of several such design choices.

BTW, I'm on the side that the faults, as shown, are tolerably inconsequential to the point where, you might like the Marantz sound better, or at least convince yourself you do on occasion. It's not neutral, but it's inconsequential compared with the potential advantages of the room correction with editor app, and other such features, if they "work" for you. (I haven't enough experience with such things to know if they'd work for me. They might work for me in the context of a second "AV" system if not my high-end-as-I-can-make-it main system.)

Actually, the fancy buffers (I'd really like to see intense comparison of 7705 without the HDAM buffers, and 8805 with), copper shielding, etc, are not meaningless in this application. And not just for the luxurious looks (though...that does seem to be a driving factor in this market segment).

One tweako choice demands others. So if you have an especially ultrasonically noisy digital reconstruction system like a slow filter or DSD, it places HIGHER demands on the following circuitry. So the fancier stuff might actually help more than it does if a correct digital filter were chosen.

 

[Blumlein 88]

They might choose to use a "correct" neutral sounding steep digital filter rather than a "champagne sound" slow digital filter.

It's a design choice, not a matter of more intense circuitry. And possibly one of several such design choices.

BTW, I'm on the side that the faults, as shown, are tolerably inconsequential to the point where, you might like the Marantz sound better, or at least convince yourself you do on occasion. It's not neutral, but it's inconsequential compared with the potential advantages of the room correction with editor app, and other such features, if they "work" for you. (I haven't enough experience with such things to know if they'd work for me. They might work for me in the context of a second "AV" system if not my high-end-as-I-can-make-it main system.)

Actually, the fancy buffers (I'd really like to see intense comparison of 7705 without the HDAM buffers, and 8805 with), copper shielding, etc, are not meaningless in this application. And not just for the luxurious looks (though...that does seem to be a driving factor in this market segment).

One tweako choice demands others. So if you have an especially ultrasonically noisy digital reconstruction system like a slow filter or DSD, it places HIGHER demands on the following circuitry. So the fancier stuff might actually help more than it does if a correct digital filter were chosen.

The 7705 has HDAM buffers.

https://www.us.marantz.com/us/products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=avseparates&ProductId=AV7705

All the Marantz pre/pros do going back a decade or more.

Featuring 11.2 channel XLR and RCA pre-outs, the Marantz AV7705 supports all three-dimensional audio format Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Auro-3D and DTS Virtual:X. For pristine picture quality, an advanced HDMI section supports 4K full-rate pass-through, 4:4:4 pure color, HDR and HDCP2.2. Enjoy audio playback with exceptional quality thanks to Marantz-proprietary HDAM modules and stream from Pandora, Spotify, TIDAL, Deezer and more with HEOS built-in. Ideal for custom integrations, the AV7705 features Creston Control and RS-232C serial port for third-party remote monitoring. Calibrate your listening environment with the full suite of Audyssey EQ tools and control the pre-amplifier with your voice and Amazon Alexa voice compatibility.

 

[digicidal]

I'd say it's quite possible in that sense, however in the case of the 8801A vs AVR-4520CI - I certainly can't hear any difference... although there are several beyond 'copper and amps' visibly different... not that much. I don't have the equipment to measure the two, although I noticed a small difference in the 8801's XLR outputs vs 4520's RCA outputs... with the RCA's on both it was identical in all modes (again subjectively... there certainly may be differences I can't hear). Likely this was simply bad level-matching at play. Also, although the UI is slightly different - all obvious options are available on each.

I would be very interested how the 'pro version' would measure - it's cheaper than all but the cheapest consumer versions and far fewer featuress. But my gut tells me it would probably be measurably superior in almost every area. Although considering the specs they do list... maybe not.
DN-700AVP

Audio Specifications

• Preamp Outputs: 7.1 Surround Sound
• Level: -10dB or +4db
• Frequency Response: 10Hz - 20kHz ± 1.0dB
• Dynamic Range: 10kHz - 20kHz, A-weighted >90dB
• Signal-to-Noise: 1 kHz, 0 dB, A-weighted >90dB
• Distortion: <0.006%
• T.H.D: 1 kHz, 0 dB, A-weighted <0.01%

Although I suppose, to be fair, maybe SNR is much, much 'greater than 90dB' and maybe THD is much, much 'less than .01%'

 

[MZKM]

They contacted Japan engineers and answer came back that they on purpose have selected a slow roll off filter because they like the sound of it! So our measurements are accurate in that regard. They should provide filter selections if they are going to do this and select something that the theory says is incorrect

This is becoming a more common theme it seems, for the new $300 AudioQuest Dragonfly Cobalt they say:

the minimum-phase slow roll-off filter...results in naturally expressive sound that is always emotionally engaging and never fatiguing—a beautiful combination of warmth and detail that we find equally exciting and soothing.

Even if talking about the resulting aliasing/imaging, this all happens >18kHz, which none of the designers can here, unless they are claiming that the different pre/post echo/ringing is audible.

 

[digicidal]

This is becoming a more common theme it seems, for the new $300 AudioQuest Dragonfly Cobalt they say:

I understand it in that context a little better however, as that's more of a 'convenience' focused device (both size and cost). If it were marketed as DAC+DSP... then it would make far less sense. At least in theory the DSP (at least room correction and simple manual EQ) is a primary feature in the 8805's case. I can understand not making it completely end-user tweakable, since support calls would increase, but why would a true bypass? Unless it's less a case of "liked the sound of it" and more a case of "it actually sounds bad without it".

 

[charlesp210]

I don't think there are multiple design teams there.

It's a relatively simple matter to give the straight laced Denon products a correct digital filter, and the Marantz equivalent the "audiophile selected" version. It would make sense to divide market share that way. Different sounds for different folks.

I agree that it would be best, of course, to give you the choice in some way, if the default is not going to be the correct kind. You might not know what you are getting stuck with, and trusted Marantz because "it's the best" even if the Denon were different (which I don't know).

This kind of dumbing down is bad. Like also, though not as bad, not showing you the sampling rate.

I'm not really happy about the form factor at all. The super dumbed-down primary display, the less dumbed down hidden display. No direct buttons for selecting sources. It all seems to follow the dumbed down approach--don't bother me with the details.

We so miss Oppo don't we. They refused this kind of dumbing down, or leaving out compatibilities, from the beginning and throughout.

 

[amirm]

It's a relatively simple matter to give the straight laced Denon products a correct digital filter, and the Marantz equivalent the "audiophile selected" version.

I suspect the marketing department decides the features of each brand and as such, I doubt anything like filter response enters the equation. They are focused on much higher level features.

 

[RichB]

I suspect the marketing department decides the features of each brand and as such, I doubt anything like filter response enters the equation. They are focused on much higher level features.

Top sales points from the Marantz site:

13.2 channels
192kHz/32bit D/A converters
Audyssey MultEQ XT32
Bluetooth and WiFi
HEOS
HDMI 2.2 HDCP 2.0b pass-through (HDR, DV, HLG)
eARC
8 HDMI Inputs
Steaming - AirPlay, Tidal, Pandora....

The Marantz site has less emphasis on HDAM sound quality feature than previous years.
I suspect that marketing insists on high-quality DACs but could care less if they provide the implied performance.

There is not much to chose from in the sub $5K market.

The Emotiva RMC-1 is a work in progress, issues remain and Dirac is not yet available.
There is no Roon support.
There are no published performance specifications.
It has great hardware so, If well implemented, it should have excellent measurements.

The Monoprice HTP-1 is expected this fall. This processor has no OSD (On Screen Display).
This may allow for a more reliable HDMI interface that is basically a switch with audio extraction.
The HTP-1 supports Roon and is fully balanced.
Currently, there are no performance specifications but I expect that there will be specs posted as they are for their (ATI built) amps.

- Rich

 

[digicidal]

Top sales points from the Marantz site:
The Marantz site has less emphasis on HDAM sound quality feature than previous years.
I suspect that marketing insists on high-quality DACs but could care less if they provide the implied performance.

As with so much marketing (audio or not) numbers are paramount - even if they're completely pointless. I think they insist less on 'high-quality' for their DACs and more just want the "192kHz/32bit" on the tear sheet. I'm honestly surprised they didn't go with something capable (at least on paper) of 384kHz or even 768kHz. Of course, the 13.2 channels are right there on top because with the enormous amount of Atmos, Auro-3D, and DTS:X content out there - you simply have to have that.

All this despite the fact that 5.1 is still the most common surround deployment and the SINAD figures as tested here fail to even reach 16bit levels.

 

[Sal1950]

As a counterpoint to this Marantz review, I would love to see the Yamaha CX-A5200 pre/pro measured.
It would be interesting to see how the Dual ESS SABRE PRO ES9026PRO Ultra DAC's would compare.
At $2700 it's quite a bit less than the 8500 but it's only 11.2 channels and priced like the Marantz 7705 line.
@amirm If the opportunity should arise, this would be a very popular compare.

 

[digicidal]

I'd be interested in that as well. I'd be even more interested if they dropped their YPAO room EQ system and licensed Dirac for it (but that's never gonna happen). At a guess it would measure better, at least as a DAC/preamp than the Marantz did.

 

[BigVU's]

I like Big VU's and I can not lie...

Anyway what a fantastic read!!! Thank you! I am not qualified to add anything scientific to this. However, maybe I can get some help in clarification? I am just one of those people out there looking to upgrade their audio. You know, up all night, weekends, buried in the analysis paralysis of this adventure of what my dollar will get. To admit I am not an audiophile but a consumer and assurance of not being doopped is of a critical need. So the endless hours of read led me here. And wow!

If the audio layman - maybe even marketing sucker - low budget <5k - guy like myself is looking to upgrade a Pioneer Elite VSX 56 TXi, finally; then, what I am reading in this and other blogs is possibly this:

An Oppo 205, Old McIntosh 2 Channel Amp, or something with Big VU's, and a balanced out source player on my REF Klipsch will be cleaner than what I have now, and even over a flagship like the 8805 for my audio delight? Or am I so far out of date that anything will sound better?

Then I go back to this thought, my conspiracy theory, perhaps Marantz over the years has figured out what the human ear likes and Amirm exposed it in this test. As "they" the Marantz engineering team, said they like the way it sounds - perhaps they say that because endless marketing tests have told them that is what most consumers like best and they purposefully put those points of delay and jitter and distortion to get that sound?

Either way I have no audiophile credibility to this - just love that there are tests being done like this one and transparency being shared and some great debate on all the above. Bravo to this forum and Amirm for the science of it!

Now what to upgrade to... ugg... if it has big VU's then I am certainly a marketing sucker! Why don't they make those as an option on the new stuff anyway ?

 

[Sal1950]

Now what to upgrade to... ugg... if it has big VU's then I am certainly a marketing sucker! Why don't they make those as an option on the new stuff anyway ?

I like the big VU's too, lot's of us do. LOL
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/vu-meters-lets-see-em.487/
If you do a search on "vu meter" checking titles only, you'll find even more including a thread on adding meters.

Back to your question, let's start with clarifying if you want to stay in the multich realm or go back to stereo only?

 

[digicidal]

Yep, right there with ya. Thinking of actually paying the premium for a pair of these. If you've already got the BDP-205 then great, otherwise - that might eat up 60% or more of your budget with the 'scarcity premium' these days. Far better options for the money now unfortunately, despite how great they are. Probably the same for the McIntosh amps... in the link above you'd have more power for less money, and they should measure well since it's a straight Ncore implementation. However, if you're wanting something that's dual duty (multichannel as well) - then the options and direction are less straightforward.

For the record, despite the (relatively) poor measurements - I have the 8801A in two separate systems, and I love them. It's possible that I could identify them in a blind test against the very best DAC/Preamp setups - but I'd say it's unlikely that I could.

It's easy to look at some of the measurements (esp. SINAD) and think "WOW, that's 30% better for the same money!" but if the 30% is on the very extreme margin of audibility... then it might not be the deciding factor (for example appearance, warranty, resale potential, etc.). That's the caveat to my statements above - while measuring better and having much better resale value - you might find that you can't really hear much difference at all between that Oppo+McIntosh combo and what you're listening to right now. I guess it depends on how badly you want to see those VU's - because they're definitely not helping anything sound better (maybe even slightly worse, depending on implementation).

I know the difficulty though... between the urge to upgrade and the desire to avoid wasting money on marketing BS. Although ASR really helps on the latter, it tends to actually exacerbate the former.

 

[BigVU's]

Yes those and more of those and why I am looking at vintage amps just to get them. Just wish they would put them on the new stuff - even its just for the looks... eh well. If those McIntosh dudes weren't so proud of their stuff! Heck even a Hitachi HMA series these days is as much as some of the flagships...

I like warmth in sound mostly and full analog seems to sound best to me - just hard to afford that sound with my budget. And movies with out surround - don't think I could go there again.

As for preference, it'd be in stereo with cd's mainly, sometimes itunes, across all genres, with some friends hanging out, not too loud but you know still there in the back ground, and then the occasional glory days stuff when no one is home and I can crank up some Led Zep.

The Pioneer was exciting at the time I got it. It was so much better than the plastic painted silver Yamaha with the eq and tape deck I had. It was a definite upgrade. Its been a faithful AVR for a long time for sure and still kicking. Though it's time, it just is.

So thinking if possible, separate amps one with a Big VU as a fronts driver with an oppo will give me a enough of both and according to the test results in this article a cleaner sounding system in both situations because of the better DACs...?

 

[digicidal]

I like warmth in sound mostly and full analog seems to sound best to me - just hard to afford that sound with my budget. And movies with out surround - don't think I could go there again.
...
So thinking if possible, separate amps one with a Big VU as a fronts driver with an oppo will give me a enough of both and according to the test results in this article a cleaner sounding system in both situations because of the better DACs...?

Maybe it's just me, but these (bold statements) seem to be somewhat at odds with each other. Some (most?) of the 'warmth' associated with gear is usually found in the distortion... so I would worry that a truly transparent sound might come across as 'dry' or 'anemic' in comparison to vintage gear. I'm not sure how the McIntosh amps measure, but I'm sure the Oppo would surpass them on every level - except power output obviously.

In reference to the italicized portion - so you would do analog 5.1/7.1 out to the VSX 56 TXi for movies, and then balanced stereo out from the Oppo to the VU-encrusted power amp for 2ch audio? If not, what would you plan on using for surround? So you don't ever plan on using a sub in your stereo listening I presume (or you have something with high-level inputs)?

Edit.. ah, I see the "separate amps" now... missed that. So a cheaper 5/7ch on the analog outs and the 'bling' one on the dedicated 2ch side. Should work fine that way (essentially using the 205 as your pre-amp). One thing I'm not sure of is the front 2 channels in surround application. I'd check the manual to confirm that the stereo outputs work for both - which I doubt as there are "FR/FL" unbalanced outputs in the surround area. IIRC there is a separate DAC used just for the 2ch... so you might need separate fronts or to switch inputs on the 2ch amp each time. Manual is confusing in this regard, but seems like a non issue. The confusing bit:

The STEREO AUDIO OUT terminals automatically down-mix the multi-channel audio source into the stereo signals. However, STEREO AUDIO OUT will NOT be affected by the “Down Mix” modes and other speaker settings in the Audio Processing section of the Setup Menu (described on page 65).

(pg 15 in the manual). So shouldn't be an issue on 2ch audio regardless... but not sure how that translates in a surround context - i.e. audio processing on all channels except fronts. I missed the chance to get a 205 for retail (but did grab a couple 203s)... and I refuse to pay the premium.

 

[BigVU's]

First, thanks for engaging in the conversation. I do not have the experience with audio that the forum has admittedly. I am not sure I can even say I know what really good hifi sounds like. As I said the Pioneer was like wow for me back in the day. It has a warm sound and provides detail in surround. Subjective of course and there is a lot of that in audio.

On the other hand I really appreciate the objective and scientific logic "Spok" approach that amirm illustrated. Perhaps he uncovered their secret sauce to big box consumer sound and they confirmed it in their response that "they like the sound." If that's the case then I am in the right budget. It may be an older Marantz for me, the dirty warm sound I know and think sounds good in admitted clueless bliss.

If however the forum and the science say - its marketing crap and you will get cleaner sound that you can make warmer with a dirty mode or older big VU amp perhaps (haha) and its equipped with this new hi res audio stuff like in an Oppo then it makes sense I will get a better value.

Either way I appreciate the energy, hours, pain, lessons, money and investment that folks have put into this hobby, profession and passion because I get to vicariously and shamelessly gain information from it and hopefully make the best choice for my world of sound.

I am bit afraid to go into the hifi shop and listen to these 5-20K amps and their 5-20K speakers as I may never be satisfied and end up chasing a unicorn sound that will ever elude my grasp. But man it's so cool!

BTW - anyone have any thoughts on the Hitachi HMA 7500 or 8500 series amps? Or the Technics SE A5 or SE series in general? How do they compare? Big VU's of course.

 

[digicidal]

There are (so far) no measurements available as it's a new product... but I'm really curious about this offering from monoprice: Monolith by Monoprice HTP-1 16 Channel Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Auro3D Home Theater Processor w/Dirac

At least as far as inputs and outputs it's comparable to the Marantz flagship, as well as price-wise (esp. since monoprice is likely to have sales knocking $500 off the price every now and then). Dirac vs Audyssey already makes them worth more to me than the Marantz (although I think Audyssey does a decent job for the most part). Unfortunately, they seem to have a real hit-or-miss QC and measurements - at least in the products tested here... so I guess "cautiously optimistic" would best describe my position.

I am bit afraid to go into the hifi shop and listen to these 5-20K amps and their 5-20K speakers as I may never be satisfied and end up chasing a unicorn sound that will ever elude my grasp. But man it's so cool!

BTW - anyone have any thoughts on the Hitachi HMA 7500 or 8500 series amps? Or the Technics SE A5 or SE series in general? How do they compare? Big VU's of course.

I'm in the same boat in that regard... mostly on the speaker side. Although having a set of Pass, Krell, McIntosh, Bryston, etc. monos is still part of the dream... age and a bad back have made me find far more love for efficient, light Class D offerings now. I don't often move gear from room to room (or house to house) but my 3ch Emotiva amp is ~90lbs... Add in the fact that it isn't better in any way (and worse in many) than a trio of Ncore monos weighing ~7lbs each, and the choice is clear IMO.

The HMA-8500 measures fairly well, though hard to say about any given sample you'd find in the used market considering the age. Those massive meters are impressive however. Same could be said for the Technics. You might try asking @restorer-john his thoughts, as he seems to spend a huge amount of time collecting and repairing 'classic gear'. He's certainly more knowledgeable than I in that area.

 

[BigVU's]

Will do. Certainly some one who works on these vintage models would have a good idea based on what they see coming in.

I read a bunch of stuff on them both watched a few sample youtube vids on them. Somewhere I read that Hitachi was one of the OEM or providers for a lot of parts in amplifiers and their line just never took hold.

Trying to understand the whole Mosfet thing as well. Apparently Hitachi was one of the first versions and there was something about their push-pull amplifier design.

In either case these vintage amps still go for a bit of coin? What would a reasonable price even be to consider it worth while to get one of them?

 

[digicidal]

As with so many collectables... the older it is and the better the condition... the higher the price. So hard to say really. You might find a bargain at a pawn shop or yard sale in your area... or you might pay a $1K+ premium in a boutique audio store. Looking at ebay, the market seems to run between $500 and $3500 - depending on model and condition. Here's a few current potentials:

Accuphase P-300 Power Amplifier - Super clean, not sure how it sounds/measures though.
Gold Hitachi HMA-7500MKII MOSFET Power Amplifier - cheap(ish)
Same seller, but matched pair with pre included for good price.
McIntosh MC 7270 Stereo Power Amplifier - Beautiful but pricey of course!
Technics SE-A1000 MKII Amplifier & SU-C1000 MKII Pre Amp

Like classic cars, I'd recommend hitting estate sales and auctions in the nearest metro area if you're not in a rush... otherwise, it will be a bit of a gamble, but all the really desirable vintage models have fairly good support from enthusiasts it seems. So although you might have to pay another $500 or so for component replacements/rehab - even if something goes wrong you're likely not left with an expensive paperweight. That's the one real advantage over current consumer gear IMO.

EDIT: If it weren't for impracticality and cost... I'd definitely get this and just put it on a pedestal in the middle of the room... it could sound like crap (though I'm sure it doesn't) and I wouldn't really care. Although if it did sound like crap, I'd hide a streamer and a cheap amp in the pedestal and listen to that while looking at the Audio Research. LOL!