Review and Measurements of Marantz AV8805 AV Processor

[GoMrPickles]

Uh, only comment on this last point... Typically, these days, if you go into anything, it touches it with the ADC. So bypassing the internal ADC is not possible. The preamps with "analog bypass" are rare anymore...

Ah, got it. I had wondered if there was a bypass mode (some might call it "Pure Direct"); I couldn't find anything in the Marantz documentation.

 

[ScofieldKid]

Ah, got it. I had wondered if there was a bypass mode (some might call it "Pure Direct"); I couldn't find anything in the Marantz documentation.

Yeah. He did the tests in "Pure Direct". But it is a deceptive term.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you recall my measures of the 7701 there's a mode that turns off video circuits to optimize audio performance. There was only one change in results. Jitter worsened slightly. I surmised it was a marketing gimmick feature as it's only effect was slightly negative.

 

[amirm]

@amirm, could that be tested, or was it already shipped back?

I shipped it back. I literally can't walk in my lab. There are just so many boxes and this was the largest so had to go quickly.

 

[amirm]

Correct, but the Marantz is only rated for 2.4Vrms, so while you wanted to stick to the standard output for balanced connections, it is much higher than the Marantz is rated for (2.4Vrms is enough for most balanced amps, but some do need more).

Again, I lowered the volume to get there. I don't know what the term "rated" means other than, "we had to reduce it to this level to get the least distortion to publish." It is not how a balanced output is used.

 

[ryanmh1]

Correct, but the Marantz is only rated for 2.4Vrms, so while you wanted to stick to the standard output for balanced connections, it is much higher than the Marantz is rated for (2.4Vrms is enough for most balanced amps, but some do need more). Going off Audioholics’ measurements of the Denon X3300, you should get a SINAD of at least 97dB if you tested it at its rated output.

I was just going to point out that review. https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements. That helps to show what the extra money buys in terms of performance. Here's another for the AVR-X5200W. Very good results for 1Vrms output. https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements. So, if you don't overdrive the outputs, it seems plausible that the performance of the AV8805 might improve.

 

[folzag]

Admittedly it's no longer being produced, but what can this do that the Oppo-205 can't? A few more HDMI inputs, a lot moar channel outputs... anything else?

 

[Sancus]

Uh, only comment on this last point... Typically, these days, if you go into anything, it touches it with the ADC. So bypassing the internal ADC is not possible. The preamps with "analog bypass" are rare anymore...

Even if it had an analog bypass, I honestly don't see much point in testing a $4.5K AV processor as an analog preamp. If you buy this unit you should be able to use it as your DAC without worrying about things, so you can listen to Atmos and 5.1 music in addition to stereo conveniently and not be concerned about audible distortions. It seems fairly straightforward that that much money should at least buy you that much confidence.

The whole idea of buying an expensive AV separate and then using a separate $100 DAC because that might produce better performance shows how absurd it is to have performance like this in such an expensive unit.

 

[ryanmh1]

What they want and what they can are different things. I cannot guarantee inaudibility of distortions until they get to a level where we can prove such. And I can tell you, that is not 90 dB SINAD. That lands in the sea of gray with respect to audibility.

I'm not going to debate how golden your ears are... I'm well aware of some of the opinions posts here as to what is audible, and I've linked before what I think is Ken Rockwell's very good and well-stated rebuttal. That's a debate for another time and place.

All I'm pointing out is that it is not fair to compare the performance of a $100 plastic box headphone amp or DAC with that of a 16+ channel AVR. I just think you're unfairly mixing apples and oranges. It's not a "reference quality DAC" but a "reference quality AVR". In my personal view, the standards are not necessarily the same, and the failure of the one to do everything the other is able to do, does not indicate a lack of engineering prowess or shoddy engineering. 'Nuf said.

 

[Shakes]

Admittedly it's no longer being produced, but what can this do that the Oppo-205 can't? A few more HDMI inputs, a lot moar channel outputs... anything else?

The importance of these features will vary for some, but a few of the bigger ones would be a lack of immersive audio decoding, room correction, and Air Play / Heos support. My system has used both the 205, and later, the 8805 to be the main hub of the system, and both performed very smoothly with my amplifiers.

 

[garbulky]

It generated a much more ideal curve than I could do manually. Yet, it sounded worse than my manual system. So again, you can't go by how good of a curve you get. You must use your ears.

*AHEM* Could we please have Amir back this imposter is spouting all sorts of subjectivist rubbish.

 

[restorer-john]

Again, I lowered the volume to get there. I don't know what the term "rated" means other than, "we had to reduce it to this level to get the least distortion to publish." It is not how a balanced output is used.

You know perfectly well what rated output is, Amir. If an amplifier is rated at 100W and you test it at 150W and it overheats and shuts down, does that mean you savage the device in your review?

I'm not excusing the Marantz at all. The few 'specifications' they did provide are incomplete and certainly don't aspire to the state-of-the-art.

That said, it bettered its THD+N and dynamic range specifications, even when tested at 'your' levels, something you haven't acknowledged.

All I'm pointing out is that it is not fair to compare the performance of a $100 plastic box headphone amp or DAC with that of a 16+ channel AVR. I just think you're unfairly mixing apples and oranges. It's not a "reference quality DAC" but a "reference quality AVR".

Exactly true. It's easy to make a quiet headphone amplifier or a datasheet application note 2ch DAC-in-a-box. Let's not pretend it isn't. This Marantz thing has wall to wall DSPs, rows of D/A converters (see the pic below), an incredibly sophisticated switching and routing matrix for digital audio, digital video and analog as well.

It's a rat's nest of design, with little care given to shielding or separation. The price you pay for that is obvious without even needing to plug in a USD$28,000 AP. More noise, THD and likely an anemic output stage.

Here for comparison is a rated set of specifications for a 1988 Yamaha CX-1000 preamplifier with inbuilt 18bit dual D/As. Back then it cost AU$2399. I sold a lot of these, along with big MX-xxxx series power amps.

To obtain performance like that and residual less than 1.5uV, the attention to detail was phenomenal for such a reasonably priced preamplifier. This pic from the 'net shows the internal sectional cover plates removed.

Phono MM/MC stage on the right in separate enclosure w/power supply.
Digital D/A centre with own transformer.
Control centre front section
Analogue line stage front

From underneath:

Buffering on every input
Analog bypassable tone stage PCB front etc

 

[esm]

Admittedly it's no longer being produced, but what can this do that the Oppo-205 can't? A few more HDMI inputs, a lot moar channel outputs... anything else?

For whatever it's worth, I asked the same question when I was upgrading to a 4K setup in my living room, and wound up replacing my AV7702 with:

• Oppo UDP-205 (main hub of the system)
• Cheap 8-port HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 switch from Aliexpress (additional inputs for the single HDMI input on the UDP-205; you should see the ridiculous IR remote this thing came with)
• MiniDSP DDRC-88A + BM (room correction)

(The whole thing is feeding an Apollon Audio NCMP8350 amp + a 7.1 set of SVS Ultra speakers and sub.)

So far, this has been a solid functional replacement for my purposes, since most of the Oppo's missing features (some network streaming protocols, specifically) are already handled by other gear that I've hung off the Oppo and the HDMI switch, and I'm satisfied with the weaker stereo->multichannel transcoding options on the UDP-205. I spend most evenings doing a bit of viewing/listening with headphones too (via a dedicated headphone amp, not the built-in one), and I feel like it really shines there.

I'd also point out the pretty dramatic increase in cost over a more integrated unit from Marantz or Onkyo, especially given current prices on used UDP-205s, for what is a dubious performance improvement.

But I like it.

(And this feels pretty off-topic for the thread, so I'll just leave it at this.)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Uh, only comment on this last point... Typically, these days, if you go into anything, it touches it with the ADC. So bypassing the internal ADC is not possible. The preamps with "analog bypass" are rare anymore...

The 8805's multichannel analog inputs cannot be digitized.

 

[MZKM]

Again, I lowered the volume to get there. I don't know what the term "rated" means other than, "we had to reduce it to this level to get the least distortion to publish." It is not how a balanced output is used.

A balanced output voltage is used to go into a balanced amp, which gains it and the amount of decibel/voltage gain determines the output wattage (I know you know this, stating for others). So, how much output voltage you need for your amp is determined by what amp you have, the PS Audio BHK 300 needs just 1.3Vrms for instance.

All I’m saying is if Marantz gives specs at 2.4Vrms, seeing if it meets its specs is worthwhile. Also since most people who own one likely won’t need more than that.

I get that you want it standardized and that 4Vrms should be expected for balanced, but it’s almost like calling the DIY Hypex unit you measured junk because it has 10% THD at 300W, but if you back down you can see that it has 0.004% THD at 225W. I get this isn’t a perfect example, but I hope it sorta shows the point.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Based on that, it would seem like the Marantz was adding some distortion to the Benchmark DAC output.

There you go.

 

[folzag]

Oppo's missing features (some network streaming protocols, specifically) are already handled by other gear that I've hung off the Oppo and the HDMI switch

I recently had that epiphany, myself. Built-in streaming is nice, but vastly over-rated as marketing/purchase criteria.

But I like it.

+1. At the end of the day, that's what's important. Not some number on a scope.

(And this feels pretty off-topic for the thread, so I'll just leave it at this.)

Thank you for your answer. It was an honest question on my part. (I don't think it's entirely off-topic to ask if there's other, easier, cheaper, etc. ways to skin a cat. )

 

[amirm]

You know perfectly well what rated output is, Amir. If an amplifier is rated at 100W and you test it at 150W and it overheats and shuts down, does that mean you savage the device in your review?

This is not a power amplifier. Have you see balanced output with "rated" specification of 2.5 volts or whatever it is?

 

[MZKM]

Have you see balanced output with "rated" specification of 2.5 volts or whatever it is?

Yes? Well, not that exact value, but many give specs at a specified voltage; just looking at the spec pages on their Stereophile reviews, the Mark Levinson No.526 preamp, the PS Audio BHK Preamplifier, and the Boulder 2110 preamp are a few that do give (some) specs at a given output voltage.

 

[amirm]

All I'm pointing out is that it is not fair to compare the performance of a $100 plastic box headphone amp or DAC with that of a 16+ channel AVR. I just think you're unfairly mixing apples and oranges. It's not a "reference quality DAC" but a "reference quality AVR". In my personal view, the standards are not necessarily the same, and the failure of the one to do everything the other is able to do, does not indicate a lack of engineering prowess or shoddy engineering. 'Nuf said.

What does the number of channels have to do with it? It is a massive box to house those 16 channels. It doesn't have the constraints of a small DAC that has to fit in a small package. Here is a comparison of a review I just did with identical AK4495 DAC as the Marantz: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ew-and-measurements-of-ibasso-dx120-dap.6943/

That DAP has an ARM processor. It runs an operating system. Has a display and battery, all in a tiny package compared to Marantz. Yet, it manages to produce that excellent jitter measurement.

Here is a snapshot from Marantz website on AV8805:

Don't you think people are reading this expect to have something is far better than CD's dynamic range than less? Should those numbers have any value?

Here is how it ends:

Best in class for music is not what it is delivering.

Net, net, you have made no case for why a lower standard should exist for flagship AV processor. Customers think they are getting everything there, not settling for something less.