Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Amp & EQ (Part 1)

[amirm]

Yes that's it, the product is way to dark, so dark I find the pictures pointless, I would never have guess there were sockets on the front panel for instance.

I could barely see them myself. My work area is designed to be rather dark to keep eye strain low. I have broad light I use for photography but I don't spend more than a minute or two getting a working shot. Also, my professional monitor has lower contrast than what I see on non-calibrated monitors so what I see is not as dark there as most of you probably seeing.

 

[gvl]

Hopefully Steinway will continue to supply their products to Madrona Digital after this

 

[Blumlein 88]

The old Equibit was optimized for a 6 ohm load. More and you got noise and the response peak. Less and you get a droop. Is your test 8 ohms?

Also did you measure the DC level?

 

[amirm]

The old Equibit was optimized for a 6 ohm load. More and you got noise and the response peak. Less and you get a droop. Is your test 8 ohms?

It is 4 ohm.

Also did you measure the DC level?

Yes but it would jump all over the place. I noted the last measurement I saw on the dashboard.

 

[BYRTT]

...At first, that created very odd results. Audio Precision software decided to just show a DC measurement in the scope graph and would refuse to give me a reliable power measurement. I was going crazy until I realized there was fair bit of DC leakage out of the unit. So I told the AP to use AC measurement and that all of a sudden cured the problem...

...Noise starts to increase immediately after 20 kHz and rises up to just -20 dB or so in one channel (red). Hopefully your tweeter stops way short of 55 kHz or it will be cooking good...

...Normally my AES-17 filter gets rid of switching noise but the frequency is so low here that it does nothing to the components above 20 kHz but below 100 kHz...

...Let's see if we can get some reprieve in a simple frequency response test. Once again I had to set the input to AC coupled to get proper measurements...

...The blue channel response starts to rise at or below 20 kHz, peaking at around 50 kHz. I suspect that is the corner frequency of the passive filter in the switching amplifier. Given that my load is a simply resistive dummy load, I expect much more pronounced and hence load dependent frequency response...

Uhh disappointing bencmark numbers in comparison to other gear is one thing, but stuff as above about DC leakage and noice rises up to -20 db immediately after 20 kHz probably raises some eyebrow here and there. Great thanks for review so far, imagine it must be hard to write such a story where most positive stuff looks is about jitter test.

 

[Eurasian]

Wow -- just bought an ERGO unit for the RoomPerfect feature! I hope Lyngdorf does better with room correction than they do with DACs/amps.

Fingers crossed until part 2.

 

[graz_lag]

From Lyngdorf's web site :

"All Lyngdorf Audio products exist for one purpose: to provide sound systems that render audio exactly as the musician and sound engineer intended, with nothing added or taken away through the process of recording and replay."
"Today, Lyngdorf Audio components are recognized worldwide as some of the best high-performance digital audio products available."

The wording "creating marketing is much more than engineering" cannot find any better place than here ...

 

[suttondesign]

This website is going to wreak havoc. Manufacturers have been selling design, not precision instruments. I was a design/builder for many years, and I saw much the same thing -- form over function. It drove me crazy. It's not like I'm worried about the people who spend 6-large on a black box, but the problem affects everyone who wants to obtain a well-engineered product but who, like me, is not able to assess the technical merits of a design. (I built kitchens and bathrooms to the measurements of my clients, and I designed and oversaw the construction of the cabinets and systems my clients would interact with. As you might guess, it was a small market!) I suspect that Amir will end up with a much bigger project/enterprise/endeavor on his hands than he anticipated -- hope it can continue.

 

[FrantzM]

This website is going to wreak havoc. Manufacturers have been selling design, not precision instruments. I was a design/builder for many years, and I saw much the same thing -- form over function. It drove me crazy. It's not like I'm worried about the people who spend 6-large on a black box, but the problem affects everyone who wants to obtain a well-engineered product but who, like me, is not able to assess the technical merits of a design. (I built kitchens and bathrooms to the measurements of my clients, and I designed and oversaw the construction of the cabinets and systems my clients would interact with. As you might guess, it was a small market!) I suspect that Amir will end up with a much bigger project/enterprise/endeavor on his hands than he anticipated -- hope it can continue.

You're an optimist. A large number of audiophiles confronted with their inability to discern a coat hanger from their expensive cables have however developed an immunity to rationality when it comes to audio products... They fault the tests and revert to more expensive cables... In that land a USB cable, can cst $15,000.
You should also know that even Ethernet cables transport bits better when they are expensive ....

 

[restorer-john]

I think it would be reasonable to conclude that one of the amplifier channels is either damaged, faulty or incorrectly implemented.

Overall, the amplification section tested poorly, but I'd like to see with loads other than 4 ohms.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It could be damaged. I have an old Tact amplifier that was Equibit. Not the same as the current Lyngdorf so maybe it doesn't mean much. I just had a few minutes so hooked it up and turned it on.

It has 3.2 mV DC on one channel and my meter jumps between 0 and .1 mV DC on the other. This at max volume. AC with this meter which is flat to a few thousand hz before dropping off is a few millivolts on each channel. Reducing gain reduces both DC and AC noise.

The frequency counter shows 280 khz which I presume is the switching frequency. On later Tact amps I've measured 384 khz this way.

If you look at the specs for the one you are testing, they aren't out of line with your results. Things like:
Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.05% max from 20 to 20,000 Hz THD-N 1w/8ohm 0,04% / THD-N 1w/4ohm 0,04%
Which is only -66 db. This is from their website.

They had similarly curious specs listed for the old Tact Equibit amps:
From owner's manual.
Performance:
• THD+N level -107dB A-weighted both channels driven at -60dB@1kHz
• THD+N level -104dB with both channels driven at -60dB@1kHz
• THD+N < 0.01% @1kHz 10W in 8 Ohms (<0.02% from 1-150W)
• THD+N < 0.015% @100W from 20-20 kHz
•Dynamic range 107dB

All of which looks okay until you see this is driven by -60 db signal at 1 khz. All your really getting is the raw quiescent noise floor.

None of which excuses the performance for the price.

Though I must say the old Tact amps sounds quiet and fine in use.

 

[dkinric]

This website is going to wreak havoc. Manufacturers have been selling design, not precision instruments. I was a design/builder for many years, and I saw much the same thing -- form over function. It drove me crazy. It's not like I'm worried about the people who spend 6-large on a black box, but the problem affects everyone who wants to obtain a well-engineered product but who, like me, is not able to assess the technical merits of a design. (I built kitchens and bathrooms to the measurements of my clients, and I designed and oversaw the construction of the cabinets and systems my clients would interact with. As you might guess, it was a small market!) I suspect that Amir will end up with a much bigger project/enterprise/endeavor on his hands than he anticipated -- hope it can continue.

I had similar thoughts today. In a past life, I worked for a large consumer electronics company in the corporate offices and dealt with many large manufacturers, so this industry used to be my occupation. I have seen this website grow in just the few months I've been a part of it - starting to get high exposure links on megasites such as Reddit. I would think Amir can confirm a significant web traffic increase vs last year. If this can continue to grow, manufacturers who are hungry for market share will need to pay attention. They don't want to be embarrassed with poor measurements. Sites like Cnet/WhatHifi /Sound and Vision are too financially intertwined with them to embarrass their partners.

I get the feeling Amir don't give a fu@k about that - the numbers are the numbers. If ASR's influence continues to grow, it could see more attention being paid to basic engineering principles and raise all boats. Lyngdorf really had no meaningful retort to their poorly measuring $6500 item. The value proposition falls apart if it doesn't even do the basic things well.

One guy with his fancy analyzer box and a website could disrupt an industry - that's pretty cool.

 

[MZKM]

I’d save the money and get the MiniDSP SHD and two of the Hypex monoblocks (which would have a lot more wattage than the unit Amir tested), or buy the ATI amps using Hypex.

@amirm
Why do you choose to pick the wattage values on the “hockey stick” curve rather than simply choosing say @ 0.1% THD and/or 1% THD. Only downside is if the THD doesn’t shoot up high after reaching these points, but that’s usually a rare case.

 

[amirm]

@amirm
Why do you choose to pick the wattage values on the “hockey stick” curve rather than simply choosing say @ 0.1% THD and/or 1% THD. Only downside is if the THD doesn’t shoot up high after reaching these points, but that’s usually a rare case.

You mean the maximum power? If so, yes, I look for sudden increase in distortion in headphone and power amplifiers. I know it is not always fair as sometimes the knee is at higher distortion for one versus another. But I have settled on it so I keep reporting it this way. The full graph is there for anyone wanting to pick a different value.

If there is strong feeling about this, I can try to create a single test with a target THD+N.

 

[MZKM]

You mean the maximum power? If so, yes, I look for sudden increase in distortion in headphone and power amplifiers. I know it is not always fair as sometimes the knee is at higher distortion for one versus another. But I have settled on it so I keep reporting it this way. The full graph is there for anyone wanting to pick a different value.

If there is strong feeling about this, I can try to create a single test with a target THD+N.

I get wanting to stick with what you’ve been doing, I just have a hard time seeing the reasoning in the first place; what matters is how much power you can get without audible distortion, factoring in music masking distortion (what is audible is not exact and depends on how many other components are in the chain, but 0.1% should suffice).

 

[amirm]

I get wanting to stick with what you’ve been doing, I just have a hard time seeing the reasoning in the first place; what matters is how much power you can get without audible distortion, factoring in music masking distortion (what is audible is not exact and depends on how many other components are in the chain, but 0.1% should suffice).

I don't know what that number is. I do know when an amp is operating outside of its design limits and that is what I report from the graph.

 

[jsrtheta]

Yes that's it, the product is way to dark, so dark I find the pictures pointless, I would never have guess there were sockets on the front panel for instance.

I never would have guessed, from the pictures alone, that those were the same components.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I’d save the money and get the MiniDSP SHD and two of the Hypex monoblocks (which would have a lot more wattage than the unit Amir tested), or buy the ATI amps using Hypex.

@amirm
Why do you choose to pick the wattage values on the “hockey stick” curve rather than simply choosing say @ 0.1% THD and/or 1% THD. Only downside is if the THD doesn’t shoot up high after reaching these points, but that’s usually a rare case.

Exactly what I'm planning to do.

 

[MetalheadRich]

You mean the maximum power? If so, yes, I look for sudden increase in distortion in headphone and power amplifiers. I know it is not always fair as sometimes the knee is at higher distortion for one versus another. But I have settled on it so I keep reporting it this way. The full graph is there for anyone wanting to pick a different value.

If there is strong feeling about this, I can try to create a single test with a target THD+N.

I agree on having the THD target instead. My ears don't care where a knee in the curve is.

 

[garbulky]

0.1% THD and 1% THD is an oft quoted spec on product manuals. So having a 0.1THD and 1%THD figure given is a nice easy way of knowing if it meets the specification or not. I've never seen a company rate their power by the knee.