Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf RoomPerfect EQ

[amirm]

Are you saying that you measured response of the both speakers with REW when you were doing control of the effects of Lyngdorf's calibration?

Correct. And yes, bass is mono usually so combining speakers for that region is fine.

 

[Krunok]

Correct. And yes, bass is mono usually so combining speakers for that region is fine.

Exactly. So your both speakers response measured with REW actually gives a good pictures of LF range, which is the one that is being corrected by EQ system. For that reason I think it is enough that you repeat the same measurement of both speakers response with Dirac and once you overlay it with the one taken with RoomPerfect EQ we will have a very good comparison of both systems. Do you agree?

P.S. for the reason of fair comparison I also made both speaker response with sweep from center of LP as the first one was with RTA where I was moving the mic to get average response.

 

[amirm]

I have permission to keep the Lyngdorf a couple more days. Challenge is more testing there and not testing the large pile of gear waiting for review...

 

[Krunok]

I have permission to keep the Lyngdorf a couple more days. Challenge is more testing there and not testing the large pile of gear waiting for review...

IMHO that is hardly a dilemma - now you have a unique opportunity to compare two respectable room EQ systems. You have put great effort to test a huge number of DACs and headphone amps so further tests of such equipment can wait a little. That is of course only my personal opinion..

 

[Blumlein 88]

Very interesting! So these are sweeps of both speakers playing taken at different points lef and right from the center of LP?

Scale is quite large so the response is more linear than it looks on the first sight, but what is more impotant is that differences are indeed small.
I'll try to make this measuerement with my speakers as soon as my son wakes up. As he has just finished his exams for this semester this can take a while..

These were one speaker playing, but no reason to think it would be much different with a symmetrically placed speaker on the other side. And yes, I made the scale large so differences were easy to see in detail.

 

[RayDunzl]

Very interesting! So these are sweeps of both speakers playing taken at different points lef and right from the center of LP?

Here were seven points across my sofa, both speakers playing - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iscuss-room-correction.1448/page-6#post-38205

 

[amirm]

Should we keep these discussions here or a fresh new thread?

 

[Krunok]

Here were seven points across my sofa, both speakers playing - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iscuss-room-correction.1448/page-6#post-38205

Nice experiment! Is the response optimised for center position (red curve)? 1/12 smoothing?

 

[arisholm]

A proper Dirac vs RoomPerfect comparison would be very interesting to many people.
So just some humble thoughts, and by no means claiming that I have a perfect experiment setup in place:

My own (unfortunately quite informal and now outdated due to recent SW updates) REW measurements of Dirac vs RoomPerfect (RP) indicated that Dirac corrected the FR substantially more "flat" than did RP (in the MLP), at least in my setup with corner placed subs.
But I think this result was partly by design and not because RP could not correct more: With RP, the upper and lower thresholds/gain limits are guided by the random room measurements after the first measurement in the MLP, as explained in AES-papers from 2006 and 2007 by Jan Abildgaard Pedersen et al. Dirac does this differently, with some averaging of measurements to set the filter coefficients, and also, unlike RP, with a lot of emphasis on combinations of IIR and FIR filters that also correct the time domain/impulse response.
So if you want to compare Dirac with RP in a reasonably comprehensive way (and do not want to resort to systematic double-blind listening tests like Harman research did when designing ARCOS and doing their published assessment of that against RP and others), I think you would have to compare more than just the frequency response (e.g., impulse response, waterfall, etc) and somehow also include measurements also around the MLP.
Another "feature" that would be important to assess in such a comparison is the performance in systems with subs: In that case RP measures each channel (i.e., sub+main speakers in a bass managed channel), which some people think causes a better "blend", and which some critics claim is inappropriate due to the risk of comb filtering (since you may in effect correct the LF output from the (same) subs several times). Most Dirac setups, on the other hand, measures each speaker individually and thus assumes the upstream bass management will not make a mess at the XO splice, which it sometimes does.
Of course some initial FR graphs with a pair of speakers without subs will give some interesting, partial info about the differences but not much more.
YMHO ;-)

 

[Krunok]

While I basically agree with you it is mroe than obvious that Amirs Salons don't need subs assistane in LF so my proposal is that he simply repeats the same measurement with Dirac correction setup so we get an initial view to how Dirac compares to RoomPerfect EQ.

 

[Panelhead]

I used an earlier version of RoomPerfect in a loft for many years. It does limited correction on purpose. Like mentioned, filling in the narrow, hi-Q cancelations could damage speakers.
It also performs limited phase correction. If offered Off, Global, and Focus corrections. The sound with DRC turned off seemed flat and dull in comparison to either Global or Focus.
I first listened to the Lyngdorf Room Perfect in a poor sounding room at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest around 10 years ago. The demo of On and Off was very revealing. I suspected it was rigged.
Once tried at home it was very clear that it was a positive correction. Used with many different speakers, amplifiers, and subs. Horn loaded Lowthers, B&W 801, Quads, Thiels, several active monitors. I liked using it with all the speakers owned during the 8 years I used it.

 

[Se7enAtx]

Thank you for the thoughtful and thorough write up. I use an older Lyngdorf system, and feel very much the way that your words convey.

I might add, that a unique component of this system is it's versatility. You don't need to use it's amplifier for mains, in my system, I have passive subs, and use the onboard amp for those, and the DAC as a preamp to a pair of SET monos, into 115db horns, and there's absolutely zero noise coming from the Lyngdorf.

I strongly feel that this is an underestimated, underreviewed product in the market place, that offers a ton of joy, for a relatively small sum.

Thanks again!

 

[amirm]

OK, I went through the pain of recalibrating my room with Dirac (it has changed since I last calibrated it). It all went well but after a dozen measurement, the Dirac controller outputs nothing to Lyngdorf. It worked fine using the calibration software but once done, it is just silent. With my regular system torn apart, I can't test it there right now either.

I will be packing the Lyngdorf shortly to send to its owner. When I get Dirac working again, I can post its results.

 

[Tip]

Oh, for those who may not know, TACT and Lyngdorf were the same outfit at one time. Lyngdorf went his own way from Radomir Bozovic who was the guy behind the technical design of Tact. Even after the split there were many technical similarities between the two brands. I wonder if Boz is designing these for Lyngdorf again?

As Amir had noted in Part 1, Peter Lyngdorf had been one of the early pioneers in room correction. Boz had designed the correction system, or as Peter referred to it, the "DSP engines" for the TacT processors. (See the attached clip of the post Peter had written on Audiogon in 2001 about how TacT Audio was started and the RCS was developed. Note that Peter was the majority owner of NAD at the time and originally intended for TacT to be the high-end line of NAD. In fact, on the first TacT RCS processors you could see the NAD logo flash on the screen for a few milliseconds at startup.) But then Peter sold his ownership in NAD to fund the startup of TacT Audio as a separate company.

Boz isn't involved with Lyngdorf at all (I heard it was a nasty split) but both he and Peter retained the rights to the Toccata/TI class-D amp and shared the front panel & chassis (probably due to commitments to the contractor who manufactured them.) Boz got to keep the room correction system he designed and the existing processors and amps, while Peter got to keep the speakers, renamed the "MH-1 mkII" and "W-210" (the C1 and W410 were discontinued.) IIRC, both TacT and Lyngdorf released a Millenium MkIII amp, but the Millennium MkIV is a Lyngdorf amp. Boz then created a new line called "BOZ" consisting of the BOZ 216 controller/BOZ 2200 amp(s) combo that could provide up to 16 channels, but few were sold. Boz also developed a new TacT RCS called the "TacT X4" that was never released:


Boz essentially shut down TacT Audio in 2012 to concentrate on his new LED lighting business, "Pontilux" (http://www.pontilux.com/), which is located in the same building as TacT Audio in New Mexico.

Then around the end of 2012, Emotiva Audio licensed the TCS mkIII room correction software from Boz for the upcoming Emotiva XMC-1 pre-pro. Boz even had attended EmoFest in 2013 to demonstrate the TacT room correction, although it was on an RCS 2.2 XP. However, in 2014 the company that Emotiva contracted to port the TCS mkIII code to the XMC-1 was way behind schedule and said that they were busy porting Dirac to another company's pre-pro. The contractor suggested that it would be easier and faster to port the Dirac code than the TCS mkIII code to the XMC-1. Emotiva, which was already 2+ years behind the promised release date of the XMC-1, decided to go with Dirac as the room correction system for the XMC-1 (and the more recent RMC-1.) And which audio company was the contractor porting Dirac for? (Drum roll) NAD!

As for Lyngdorf Audio, Peter had the hardware and speakers, but no room correction system. He hired a group of engineers to develop a new room correction system, but it sucked. Then he fired those guys and hired Jan Abildgaard Pedersen who designed RoomPerfect, which has been successful and even licensed to McIntosh Labs.

I think I've flogged that horse to death. Is there anything else you want to know?

 

[Se7enAtx]

As Amir had noted in Part 1, Peter Lyngdorf had been one of the early pioneers in room correction. Boz had designed the correction system, or as Peter referred to it, the "DSP engines" for the TacT processors. (See the attached clip of the post Peter had written on Audiogon in 2001 about how TacT Audio was started and the RCS was developed. Note that Peter was the majority owner of NAD at the time and originally intended for TacT to be the high-end line of NAD. In fact, on the first TacT RCS processors you could see the NAD logo flash on the screen for a few milliseconds at startup.) But then Peter sold his ownership in NAD to fund the startup of TacT Audio as a separate company.

Boz isn't involved with Lyngdorf at all (I heard it was a nasty split) but both he and Peter retained the rights to the Toccata/TI class-D amp and shared the front panel & chassis (probably due to commitments to the contractor who manufactured them.) Boz got to keep the room correction system he designed and the existing processors and amps, while Peter got to keep the speakers, renamed the "MH-1 mkII" and "W-210" (the C1 and W410 were discontinued.) IIRC, both TacT and Lyngdorf released a Millenium MkIII amp, but the Millennium MkIV is a Lyngdorf amp. Boz then created a new line called "BOZ" consisting of the BOZ 216 controller/BOZ 2200 amp(s) combo that could provide up to 16 channels, but few were sold. Boz also developed a new TacT RCS called the "TacT X4" that was never released:
View attachment 22289View attachment 22290

Boz essentially shut down TacT Audio in 2012 to concentrate on his new LED lighting business, "Pontilux" (http://www.pontilux.com/), which is located in the same building as TacT Audio in New Mexico.

Then around the end of 2012, Emotiva Audio licensed the TCS mkIII room correction software from Boz for the upcoming Emotiva XMC-1 pre-pro. Boz even had attended EmoFest in 2013 to demonstrate the TacT room correction, although it was on an RCS 2.2 XP. However, in 2014 the company that Emotiva contracted to port the TCS mkIII code to the XMC-1 was way behind schedule and said that they were busy porting Dirac to another company's pre-pro. The contractor suggested that it would be easier and faster to port the Dirac code than the TCS mkIII code to the XMC-1. Emotiva, which was already 2+ years behind the promised release date of the XMC-1, decided to go with Dirac as the room correction system for the XMC-1 (and the more recent RMC-1.) And which audio company was the contractor porting Dirac for? (Drum roll) NAD!

As for Lyngdorf Audio, Peter had the hardware and speakers, but no room correction system. He hired a group of engineers to develop a new room correction system, but it sucked. Then he fired those guys and hired Jan Abildgaard Pedersen who designed RoomPerfect, which has been successful and even licensed to McIntosh Labs.

I think I've flogged that horse to death. Is there anything else you want to know?

That's a fantastic accounting, Tip! I had no idea about NAD being behind the Tact Emotiva stall out.

I was a Tact user for many years, but after running into numerous serviceability issues, and an absentee Boz, I called it quits a tried Lyngdorf. Fwiw, I've never had a single hiccup with my Lyngdorf equipment. I currently have 3 systems up and running, but the Lyngdorf Processor and W210 subs stay in the main rig.

 

[Tip]

That's a fantastic accounting, Tip! I had no idea about NAD being behind the Tact Emotiva stall out.

I was a Tact user for many years, but after running into numerous serviceability issues, and an absentee Boz, I called it quits a tried Lyngdorf. Fwiw, I've never had a single hiccup with my Lyngdorf equipment. I currently have 3 systems up and running, but the Lyngdorf Processor and W210 subs stay in the main rig.

I could be wrong -- this is conjecture on my part, but it makes for a good story! I assume it was NAD since the first two pre-pros to appear on Dirac's website were from NAD and Emotiva, and the next companies came much later.

Nice pair of double W210s. My TacT W410s are one pair of maple veneer W210s with bases on the bottom and a second pair without bases ($50 cheaper) stacked on top (they look like a single cabinet.) I had bought 8 of the custom ScanSpeak Revelator 10" woofers when Peter offered them for sale and provided DIY plans. But after I complained on the TacT Audio Users Group that the third cabinetmaker I had engaged had reneged on building the DIY W410 cabinets, Peter contacted me and offered to sell the first four W210 cabinets that came off the production line to me. That had the benefit of being able to move them by myself and TacT being able to ship them via UPS. I never would have been able to move a DIY W410 by myself and they would have been so large and heavy that they would have had to ship by freight. So it all worked out for the best.

 

[Se7enAtx]

Umm wow.

I still love my W210s. They do things that I haven't heard other systems do, period.

I'm in the process of securing a Bacch SP for the system, and am curious if the crossover section will be capable of the Linkwitz Transform that the 210s require. If not, I'll use it as a pass-through into the Lyngdorf.

BTW, it's great to see that you're on here. I used to read all of your posts on the Tact Forums.

Cheers!

 

[Balle Clorin]

Oh, you're right, I wasn't thinking about that. And yes, noise is app at 30dB, even higher at both ends of the audible spectrum.
Here is a better scaled graph..

How do you achieve this nice and even slope?

 

[Krunok]

How do you achieve this nice and even slope?

1. measure carefully and precisely
2. if not done then adjust filter
3. go to step 1.

 

[Sander_web]

So, this mediocre 'DAC' and amplifier was able to drive your Revel Salon's with ease and gave you the tendency to re-listen your entire music library again...