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Review and Measurements of Lounge LCR MKIII Phono Amp

Shadrach

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I really don't understand the point of the designers coming here to defend their products. I particularly don't understand those that reference to many years of experience, companies they've worked for and people they know in high end audio who have praised their product.
If someone has spent all these years involved in the production of stereo equipment then by now they should be able to turn out a decently measuring product.
It seems to me the designer would be better off either saying amirm has biased the test results (something that should always be taken into consideration because it happens a lot in the world of audio), the unit is defective (not so great given its a sold unit) but best of all, not to care how it measures because the customers like the product.
There are thousands of badly engineered audio products on the market that sell extremely well and the audiophiles that buy them are delighted with the sounds they produce. I am one such customer.
If I prefer a bit of distortion in my stereo sound then that's my choice. But, it all goes wrong when I profess that my stereo is high fidelity.
@Lounge Audio My advice is to just walk away. It really doesn't matter what people think here and my belief is if you had just responded with a 'thank you for testing this product. We are always interested in any reviews and constantly striving to improve our products' This would gradually sink to the bottom of the pile and in a very short while be forgotten about.
 

Soniclife

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I think the back and forth between Amir and manufacturers is really interesting, and valuable. The dialogue isn't always as polite as it could be, but it's the internet and that seems sadly unavoidable.
Here there is going to an ongoing investigation, and if the dialogue continues, and especially if the further testing is done, then people might learn something, if minds are kept open even a bit.
 

Ilkless

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Let's donate money and send him a copy of Douglas Self's book "Small Signal Audio Design."
You can even buy his RIAA amp from here. I bet you that it will both measure and sound better than the Lounge. And that's for less money, using no magic tricks, no silver wires and capacitors with magical properties.

Just three 2SB737 transistors per channel on the input, DC biased using a TL072 through a NE5534 and finally NE5532 opamp. The amplifier has an RIAA equalisation accuracy of ±0.1dB. Just by applying engineering and measurements (look at the AP logo at the top of the graphs.)

Which gives me an idea, @amirm if I order a ready-made unit for $290 and send it to you, would you like to test it? I'll pay for the return cost as well.

Seems to be for a fully-built PCB (like KTB) though. Just putting it out there. Some assembly still required. The cases are sold separately on the website.
 
D

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I really don't understand the point of the designers coming here to defend their products. I particularly don't understand those that reference to many years of experience, companies they've worked for and people they know in high end audio who have praised their product.
If someone has spent all these years involved in the production of stereo equipment then by now they should be able to turn out a decently measuring product.
It seems to me the designer would be better off either saying amirm has biased the test results (something that should always be taken into consideration because it happens a lot in the world of audio), the unit is defective (not so great given its a sold unit) but best of all, not to care how it measures because the customers like the product.
There are thousands of badly engineered audio products on the market that sell extremely well and the audiophiles that buy them are delighted with the sounds they produce. I am one such customer.
If I prefer a bit of distortion in my stereo sound then that's my choice. But, it all goes wrong when I profess that my stereo is high fidelity.
@Lounge Audio My advice is to just walk away. It really doesn't matter what people think here and my belief is if you had just responded with a 'thank you for testing this product. We are always interested in any reviews and constantly striving to improve our products' This would gradually sink to the bottom of the pile and in a very short while be forgotten about.

I don't understand it either. I suppose it's possible Robert is just trolling the objectivists here for fun.

Neither do I understand the picking on Robert from some. There's a lot of equipment on the audiophile market with puzzling design/fabrication approaches. I tend to think a one-man operation like this should be treated a bit better vice those with larger operations and resources.....like say Schiit or PSAudio or various others.

As you say, there are lots of badly engineered products that sell well and audiophiles enjoy.

Ahem.

Dave.
 

Shadrach

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I don't understand it either. I suppose it's possible Robert is just trolling the objectivists here for fun.

Neither do I understand the picking on Robert from some. There's a lot of equipment on the audiophile market with puzzling design/fabrication approaches. I tend to think a one-man operation like this should be treated a bit better vice those with larger operations and resources.....like say Schiit or PSAudio or various others.

As you say, there are lots of badly engineered products that sell well and audiophiles enjoy.

Ahem.

Dave.
I must confess that part of my irritation with all this pointless debate is that amirm isn't measuring stuff while he's involved.
I want him chained to the test bench 24/7; a product a day minimum. There's an awful lot of stuff to test.:p:D
 

SIY

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I tend to think a one-man operation like this should be treated a bit better vice those with larger operations and resources.....like say Schiit or PSAudio or various others.

I disagree with that. The standard is the standard- if I spend money with Giantco or Don & Betty's Excellent Audio Cottage, the bank treats that expenditure exactly the same way. So one should judge equipment solely by its performance and price, not by the number of employees.

Good engineering costs the same as poor engineering. And some of the things being asserted here cast doubt on whether there's any good engineering involved, rather than just storytelling. Perhaps my measurements will uncover virtues that Amir's hasn't, but don't hold your breath.
 
D

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I don't disagree with your disagreement, but I think you may have missed the gist of my point. Which is.....
Big-audio operations have less excuses for poor engineering/fabrications than small operations.

But, in either case, the products should still be measured and evaluated to the same standards. Obviously.

Dave.
 

SIY

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Perhaps I'm biased because of the number of excellent and superbly-engineered products I've tested from small operations.

I suspect that testing of Doug Self's similarly-priced RIAA stage would give impeccable results, and he's also a one-man show. But when the Lounge gets here, we'll see how it does under my test regime. It will be "treated" exactly the same way as something from Harman or Nakamichi or Yamaha or my own designs.
 

SIY

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Sorry, I don't think it's trolling. It's just trying the same tactics that work for promotion in most audio forums. The audience here is somewhat different, and there's a reason that the magic clock guy and the cable peddler gave up and went away when the usual tactics didn't work.
 
D

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Perhaps I'm biased because of the number of excellent and superbly-engineered products I've tested from small operations.

I suspect that testing of Doug Self's similarly-priced RIAA stage would give impeccable results, and he's also a one-man show. But when the Lounge gets here, we'll see how it does under my test regime. It will be "treated" exactly the same way as something from Harman or Nakamichi or Yamaha or my own designs.
I'm a one-man operation too, but if some of the gadgets I've built were subjected to the wrath of Amir's AP testing regime, I'd probably be battered/bruised as well. :)

That said, I wouldn't attempt to rationalize those results with "Yeah butt, (insert hand-waving rhetoric here.)" :)

Dave.
 

dinglehoser

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Even though I have a Cambridge Solo inbound, I'm sorely tempted by Doug Self's balanced phono pre ... @amirm, expect to see a U-Haul truck full of gear you'll be forced to test. Including a Pyle.
 

patient_ot

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Even though I have a Cambridge Solo inbound, I'm sorely tempted by Doug Self's balanced phono pre ... @amirm, expect to see a U-Haul truck full of gear you'll be forced to test. Including a Pyle.

I'm very interested in seeing the tests on the Doug Self unit. According to another forum I'm on he was a pretty instrumental in the British hi-fi scene and other designers/companies use his texts for guidance still.
 

patient_ot

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Sorry, I don't think it's trolling. It's just trying the same tactics that work for promotion in most audio forums. The audience here is somewhat different, and there's a reason that the magic clock guy and the cable peddler gave up and went away when the usual tactics didn't work.

My take away wasn't trolling either. He's at least partially a subjectivist and makes and markets his product for particular subjectivist niche. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that, it's just a very different philosophy from what Amir is doing here.
 

patient_ot

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I think the back and forth between Amir and manufacturers is really interesting, and valuable. The dialogue isn't always as polite as it could be, but it's the internet and that seems sadly unavoidable.
Here there is going to an ongoing investigation, and if the dialogue continues, and especially if the further testing is done, then people might learn something, if minds are kept open even a bit.

Right, it is still unclear to me based on some of the back and forth whether this particular unit tested might be defective.
 

SIY

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My take away wasn't trolling either. He's at least partially a subjectivist....

Subjectivism is no excuse for nor synonymous with non-rationalism. One can make perfectly valid subjective judgements on audibility when the testing is done double blind, level-matched, and with well-matched frequency response.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

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Right, it is still unclear to me based on some of the back and forth whether this particular unit tested might be defective.
There is not a whole lot in there to break yet amplify things as it has. Rob has not disputed that either so I am pretty sure we are good there.
 

SIY

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It is also highly unlikely that the exact same issue happens simultaneously in both channels. There is one other possibility which I'll explore when the unit arrives chez nous.
 

JJB70

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Surely an amplifier is a component for which measurement really does tell the whole story as the output should be no more and no less than an accurately amplified image of the input signal? And that can be demonstrated by measurement. If you do want to play with the sound signature than it strikes me as infinitely more sensible to use EQ or DSP to adjust the sonic signature of a system rather than fixing distrortion into an component. The thing I have never understood about many audiophiles is those with an obsession for signal purity and avoiding tone controls at all costs at the same time as waxing lyrical about equipment which measures badly because they like a distorted sound, that just seems bonkers to me.
 
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