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Review and Measurements of Chord Mojo DAC and Amp

Music1969

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Fellow memebers, with the help of my HiFi buddy we measured the Mojo using Toslink input. We used the standard test CD with tones. Very old school measurements using oscilloscope as we haven't got money to buy AP :p

At 1 kHz with 0 dB (~2Vrms) we achieved 0.00031%, ~ -110dB

View attachment 33845

Hi

If you measure SNR are you able to calculate SINAD , at 2Vrms output?
 

Music1969

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That's great - then only a smartphone with optical output has to come onto the market .....

According to Rob a phone should perform just as well. As long as it's not charging (connected to AC power) at the same time as listening.

A battery powered source like phone is immune to all mains power issues and is usually very low in power consumption.
 

mocenigo

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Hum.

First, welcome to the forum. :)

Glad you like your Mojo.

But, I have to admit this last part is very confusing to me. What are those power amps you're mentioning? May you explain how you distinguish measurements from sound? Your last sentence especially, seems to mean that engineering and sound are two discinct parts or entities.

Hi sorry it took some time to reply - I am often traveling for business.

I try to make the last part clearer. In the 80s some SS amplifiers were developed, like the Adcom GFA555, some of the early NAIM power amps, Yamaha P3500S and others, that were know to have (some) good measurements, yet sounded, arguably, bad - for the Adcom lack of dynamics and detail, and so on. The good measurements were obtained by essentially taking a poor amp and applying gobs of negative feedback.

Today we measure more things, for instance besides THD we also measure IMD, whereas TID is somewhat fallen in disgrace. There are also known memory effects of several electronic components that may affect the sound up to a few seconds later. What we do today is we measure still only some low order effects, but not the behaviour when the amplitude of a signal changes repeatedly, rarely IMD with several signals, also varying.

Yet, some very good measuring amps apparently have poor macro dynamics, for instance sudden orchestral fortissimo tutti sound suddenly muffled, why is that? In some cases one can easily hear that. Of course I know I should accepted nothing that is not doubly blind, but I believe I have enough evidence of that.

And herein lies what I meant. Good Engineering and good sound are clearly correlated, but not always 100%. If someone wants to design equipment for good measurements, this cannot be wrong as this is necessary to get good sound, but maybe there is something else, and there are clues, rather than proofs, that this may be the case. The clues are what apparently can be heard but not (yet) measured. A scientific mind cannot but inquiry this.

Of course measurements and perception can also go opposite ways. For instance now we know that a larger scene can be created by audible IMD (and once you see that, it becomes obvious) so in this case a better measurement can correlate with a subjectively "worse" sound, because we attribute value to something that is actually not in the signal...

Roberto
 

vkvedam

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And herein lies what I meant. Good Engineering and good sound are clearly correlated, but not always 100%. If someone wants to design equipment for good measurements, this cannot be wrong as this is necessary to get good sound, but maybe there is something else, and there are clues, rather than proofs, that this may be the case. The clues are what apparently can be heard but not (yet) measured. A scientific mind cannot but inquiry this.

Roberto
I second this, there is still something which we don't know how to quantify/measure.
 

BDWoody

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BDWoody

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I second this, there is still something which we don't know how to quantify/measure.

It isn't a voting situation...

Anything to back that up, other than uncontrolled listening tests?
 

vkvedam

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It isn't a voting situation...

Anything to back that up, other than uncontrolled listening tests?
I am talking about controlled listening tests which are purely subjective. Now I am not going to sit down here and defend as I/we don't yet have come up with a method of objectively defining it.

Would you agree that op-amps have a subtle sound signature of their own even though they measure the same under the current specified metrics?
 

solderdude

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There are also known memory effects of several electronic components that may affect the sound up to a few seconds later.

Can I ask you what these effects are and what the components are or link to the source ?

Yet, some very good measuring amps apparently have poor macro dynamics, for instance sudden orchestral fortissimo tutti sound suddenly muffled, why is that? In some cases one can easily hear that.

When dynamics alter the output waveform would need to differ from the input. All good measuring amplifiers use overall feedback. This essentially means the input signal and output signal are 1:gain factor related. The dynamics thus cannot be different otherwise the input circuit would be clipping.
One can always claim I hear it but not measure it .. but if the signal to the speaker is very close to the original then it would be logical that the amp that it is compared to may be the one changing the sound (in a pleasant way) instead of the good measuring one.
There are technically very easy ways to check the audio differences between amplifiers with real music under real load conditions. This should at least make clear IF something is really different and quantify it.
Then it is a matter of finding out which one is closer to the source signal.

For instance now we know that a larger scene can be created by audible IMD (and once you see that, it becomes obvious) so in this case a better measurement can correlate with a subjectively "worse" sound, because we attribute value to something that is actually not in the signal...

source of this knowledge/facts ?
 

solderdude

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Would you agree that op-amps have a subtle sound signature of their own even though they measure the same under the current specified metrics?

Just build 2x the same circuit but different opamps and null the outputs and you can prove how they sound different. Such is more scientific than making a claim and stating the there is more than current metrics.
In science something usually is only considered proven when results are evident and can be duplicated by someone else. Hearing is not the best tool for this.
 

mocenigo

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I am talking about controlled listening tests which are purely subjective. Now I am not going to sit down here and defend as I/we don't yet have come up with a method of objectively defining it.

Would you agree that op-amps have a subtle sound signature of their own even though they measure the same under the current specified metrics?

Regarding opamps, I clearly did not want to believe what I was hearing. Whatever is the reason (is it the opamp itself or the way it interfaces electrically with the rest?) I ended up with a specific choice in my amplifier rather than a couple of alternatives.

What I observe is that some tests are not performed and I wonder whether they would reveal differences. There was a time when SN ratio and THD were the only two measured parameters and it was common to diss everyone that would claim there were differences between amplifiers even though they both measured great (thanks to gobs of negative feedback - I made a couple of examples above). Time will tell, I am quite sure we do not yet know all there is to know about how our brain processes the signals we hear especially if very complex.

Roberto
 

bunkbail

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majingotan

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How does this compare as a DAC vs like the D50s?

I use mine for portable DAC and IEM only listening since it’s got better volume control than the apple dongle especially for my CA Andromeda IEM. As for subjective sound, it’s warmer sounding than the dongle maybe due to slightly lower output impedance than the dongle. As for desktop DACs, it’s inferior to it
 

Music1969

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The Mojo didn't measure well. It was my Mojo I lent for testing. I sold it later and am using a Khadas Tone Board now.

Didn't measure well by Amir, using his old system...

Measured well here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-mojo-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

Measured well here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-chord-mojo.2434/

Measured well here: http://goldenears.net/board/GR_Amp_DAC/5904087

Really enjoy my Mojo. It's USB input is sensitive to source (RF). HiFi News seems to use it to measure USB sources, maybe for this reason.

I use it's optical input however and it's superb (to me).
 

Veri

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@Music1969 it was measured by Amir on his new system. Not on his old system.

Mojo will have battery issues after a couple of years after which you are SOL and need to pay for servicing. It's also very susceptible to EMI, cell phone interference, even tapping on its enclosure gets picked up. This is inexcusably bad for a high end device.

The performance also constantly jumped up and down during Amir's measuring.

I would not recommend Mojo in 2020...
 

Music1969

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Mojo will have battery issues after a couple of years after which you are SOL and need to pay for servicing.

My Mojo is 3 years old and battery still gets ~7 hours.

But I do know why people have issues - Mojo doesn't handle being charged 24/7 well. This has been explained by Rob Watts on Head-Fi.

Hugo2 solved this issue with a 'desktop mode'. It's a battery management issue which Mojo didn't do well but Hugo2 (which came later) does very well.

No doubt Mojo2 will have this and the RF issues sorted (like Hugo2).

I have to agree with you to not recommend the Mojo in 2020 because I think the recent retail price drop may hint at a Mojo2 in 2020...

But still my Mojo with TOSlink input is fantastic.
 
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